E207 - When Our Minds Trick Us Into Ineffective Leadership with Cayla Horey

207. When Our Minds Trick Us Into Ineffective Leadership – Interview with Cayla Horey

About this Podcast

Ep. 207 – Daring to sound cliché… but I’m pretty sure you’ve heard phrases like, “Think about what you are thinking about,” and “Our thoughts become our beliefs, and our beliefs become our action.” But have you ever had someone call out your mental blind spots?

Do you know what mental traps might be impacting your effectiveness as a leader? Would you be able to recognize them yourself?

In this episode, Ramona and her guest and fellow Leadership Coach, Cayla Horey share examples of situations when a leader’s internal dialogue was about to trip them up but a coaching conversation cleared the path for a more effective leadership experience.

Cayla explains that our brains offer us constant streams of thoughts, and we have a natural tendency to simply accept and believe those thoughts as truth.

However, these unchallenged narratives can lead us down unproductive paths, causing us to make decisions or take actions that can ultimately hurt our teams and organizations.

This episode demonstrates how replacing limiting mindsets with more empowering ones that are as equally true, can unlock dramatically better outcomes for you as a leader.

If you are interested in developing a keen sense of self-awareness and identifying mental blind spots then this episode is for you.

Watch the YouTube video here.

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Episode 207 Transcript:

0:00:00 Ramona Shaw: Today we’re going to talk about how our minds can trick us into ineffective leadership. For this conversation, I have a guest with me. Her name is Cayla Horey and she is an experienced leadership coach who works specifically with business owners to help them grow their leadership so they can grow their organizations. I wanted to bring her on because a couple of weeks back, her and I had a conversation about coaching overall.

0:00:25 Cayla Horey: And it occurred to me in that.

0:00:26 Ramona Shaw: Conversation that I would have loved for so many people to listen in and hear us talk about what coaching is, how we’re helping leaders across industries become stronger leaders through that professional development tool of coaching. Coaching is very different from an on demand course, a LinkedIn course, a book, a podcast where you’re receiving information a lot of times around best practices, practices or frameworks or ways to go about a specific problem or potential solutions and so forth.

0:01:01 Ramona Shaw: Coaching is about understanding where what is your way of thinking about a certain problem or a situation, what drives you internally to then act out and behave a certain way. And that is hard to do just through self reflection. So as a coach, our work is really in helping leaders understand how their way of thinking, their values, their assumptions, their perspectives is then directly impacting how they feel and how they act in certain situations.

0:01:33 Ramona Shaw: And that is a catalyst to professional development because it’s not about a particular tool or framework. It is about changing our mindsets, our attitudes and our perspectives on the things that we’re dealing with, which oftentimes are brand new territory as a leader and as we’re growing teams and organizations. So this conversation, I’m convinced you’ll find lots of nuggets for you to take out because we’re talking about a range of different situations, of challenges that our clients had and how we’ve helped them through them. We’re also going to talk about what separates great leaders from everyone else and a lot more. So get ready and let’s dive in and welcome Cayla to the show.

0:02:14 Ramona Shaw: Here’s this episode. How do you successfully transition into your first official welcome to episode two. Build with the confidence to lead your team. Today I have a guest on Leader across the organization. Today I have a guest. Her name is Cayla. Show her. She is a leadership coach. Welcome to the medical podcast.

0:02:33 Ramona Shaw: I’m a business owner.

0:02:34 Ramona Shaw: I’m on a mission to create a wide range of industries where work is not seen as a source of stress and dread, but as a support. Welcome to The Manager Track podcast. This is episode zero six and we’re going to talk about leaders, how our know, how it can trick us into leadership and growth. My guest in the Showa Hori and she is confident leadership coaches, leaders, business owners grow.

0:02:58 Cayla Horey: Cayla, thank you so much for joining.

0:02:59 Ramona Shaw: Us on The Manager Track podcast. I’m excited that you’re here and that we get to chat about all things leadership, coaching and leadership development.

0:03:07 Cayla Horey: Yes, thank you so much for having me. This is super fun.

0:03:11 Ramona Shaw: So one of the things that I really enjoy talking to you about is the power of helping leaders and business owners take different perspectives and reframe the inner dialogue that they have in their minds that then unlocks a whole new realm of possibilities and options that they may not have seen prior to our coaching session. Can you talk a little bit more about how that shows up in your work and some specific examples that you might be able to share?

0:03:40 Ramona Shaw: Yeah. Yeah.

0:03:41 Cayla Horey: Well, I think our brain offers us thoughts all day long and we believe them, right? Like our natural tendency is to believe the thoughts that our brain is offering to us. And oftentimes those are the thoughts that keep us stuck and we don’t realize it because we believe them and we think that they’re just truth. And so one example of where I’ve seen this come up with, with one of my clients, I have a claya that I work with. Shes an incredible naturopathic doctor, has an amazing clinic where she serves people, and is very gifted at what she does.

0:04:16 Cayla Horey: And in a recent coaching session, she came to me and there was a challenge happening with one of her employees where she knew that it was time to let the employee go. And when she came to the session, she said, I know its time to let her go, but for a bunch of reasons, it felt super loaded and she was just concerned about the potential fallout and the way that it would impact other parts of the business.

0:04:39 Cayla Horey: And so we really talked through it, kind of came up with a game plan and talked about the steps that she could take to be just prepared well to set it up to do, do this process well for this employee in letting her go. And so we talked through those steps she went implemented over the course of the next week. And then when she came back to the next coaching appointment, the employee had a pre planned vacation for, I think it was three days during that window.

0:05:13 Cayla Horey: And so my client was able to kind of make a game plan, cross her t’s, dot her I’s, do the things that she needed to do. And then our next coaching appointment fell in the window that the employee was on her pre planned vacation days. And so my client came back and I said, how are you feeling. We did some check in, and she said, dotted all the I’s, crossed all the t’s. Now I just need to do this. I just need her to get home. I just need to get this done.

0:05:42 Cayla Horey: And she said, I’m hemorrhaging $900 this week while this girl’s on vacation. Knowing that it’s that, I just need to let her go. She said, so as soon as she gets back from vacation, I’m just so anxious to just get it done. And I stopped her, and I said, well, let’s just talk about this for a second. When, when you think that thought, I’m hemorrhaging $900 this week while this girl’s on vacation, what comes up for you?

0:06:08 Cayla Horey: And she said, well, I’m feeling super anxious and I’m feeling kind of robbed and I’m feeling a little stressed to just make this happen and get it done. And I said, okay, hold on a second. Let’s talk through this. Why did we wait a week? Why didn’t you just do it last week on Tuesday when we met? And she’s like, well, I had to take care of this and dot this I and cross that t. And I said, so rather than just accepting that buff that your brain is offering you, rather than just going with, gosh, I’m hemorrhaging $900, which it’s so easy for us to hear that and be like, oh, yeah, you’re hemorrhaging $900. Get rid of her quick. You know, but when we just stop and see that that thought in and of itself is creating angst and anxiousness and even some frustration and a feeling of being cheated, I said, if you go into this conversation with her on Thursday feeling all those things, how do you think that conversation is going to go?

0:07:05 Cayla Horey: She was, huh, well, probably not going to go super well. And I said, so let’s just talk about this for a second. What’s a different thought that’s equally true that your brain could offer you that could help you show up more the way you want to show up as a leader? And as we talked through it, we talked about the fact that the reason that she delayed this week was to do this well, to do it with integrity, to make sure she was well prepared, to be really thoughtful for the employees she was letting go and for the other staff that would be impacted.

0:07:39 Cayla Horey: And so we talked through, like, what if, what if, rather than believing you’re hemorrhaging $900, what if you believe that $900 was worth doing this with integrity and being the kind of leader that you want to be in a tricky situation. And this particular client is very high, multiple six figures, crossing over seven figures this year. So $900, not a big deal, right. It’s like, is that worth showing up as the leader you want to? And it completely shifted her energy. It completely shifted her experience of the situation. And I said, when you really camp in, $900 is worth doing this well. And being the kind of leader that I want to be and showing up the way that I want to show up, what comes up for you?

0:08:25 Cayla Horey: How does that shift things for you? And she said, well, now I feel calm, now I feel confident, now I feel prepared.

0:08:33 Ramona Shaw: Right.

0:08:33 Cayla Horey: And so when I’m able to help her see how, again, that thought seems so believable, and so many of us would have just easily agreed with that story, yeah, you’re hemorrhaging money. Let’s get rid of her. But it’s when we can see what that’s creating for us and we’re able to reframe, and again, we’re not looking for toxic positivity. We’re not looking to say, like, whoa, I’m so thrilled that I paid for this girl vacation. No, the reason why we paid for her vacation is because we slowed down to do it well.

0:09:03 Cayla Horey: And when we remember that and we reframe in that way, it helps us to sit in the energy of leadership, of, I am a leader who leads well. I am a leader who shows up in hard situations well, who does, you know, hard, difficult decisions and difficult processes as a leader, I do them with integrity. And it completely shifted her experience of that week. She was able to go into that conversation on Thursday, and it was a tricky situation, but she handled it so well from an energy of confidence and stability and integrity, rather than from that anxious, I’m being ripped off this week feeling.

0:09:45 Cayla Horey: And so she was able to show up as a leader she wanted. It went really, really well. There ended up being no fallout in her business. All the different things that she had been worried about. And so just the power of being able to do that reframing, really impacts the way we show up and the result that we create that is such.

0:10:05 Ramona Shaw: An important message here. And I invite everyone listening to just quickly imagine being in that first state of being anxious about it because you feel some kind of resentment towards that person and the $900 or whatever that might be in our unique own personal situations where we may think, ah, you know, I can’t believe they’re taking advantage of me in a way, or they’re really hurting or sabotaging in a way, and we start to feel angry about it versus thinking, no, I’m going to play this out. I’m going to act with integrity.

0:10:37 Ramona Shaw: I am going to make sure I’m well prepared. I speak to HR, I talk to my boss to mitigate any fallout and to do it well. From a human to human point of view, that sense of confidence will lead to a completely different conversation.

0:10:57 Cayla Horey: But it’s hard for us to pick.

0:10:58 Ramona Shaw: Up what those thoughts are that create the narrative and then put us into these tricky situations. Unless someone else calls us out and say, like, hold, not necessarily call out, but like, stop us and say, pause for a second. How do you feel when you think that? And is there something else that’s, like you said, that’s also true, that would lead to a likely better outcome?

0:11:21 Ramona Shaw: Yeah. Yeah.

0:11:22 Cayla Horey: And that’s the power of coaching and mentorship and having others in our lives who help us see, see again, because our brain defaults to believing those thoughts.

0:11:31 Ramona Shaw: Right.

0:11:32 Cayla Horey: And so having someone else say, hey, just let’s increase awareness, let’s ask some questions around this. What’s coming up for you when you’re camping in the, in that thinking? And is it serving you to show up the way you want to? And if it’s not, let’s rethink, what are some other things that are true that will help you to show up the way that you want to, and that changes everything and how we’re able to lead and so, so important to have that outside perspective.

0:11:58 Ramona Shaw: Yeah, exactly. And there’s. I actually would like to talk about a few additional examples to help anyone listening or watching us relate this back to their unique situation. One conversation that I had just yesterday with a group was around also about letting someone go and then the reasons why we may procrastinate on that decision and how the ego may play into it where we think. But I’m so invested, I hired them.

0:12:25 Cayla Horey: I gotta, I gotta prove that they.

0:12:28 Ramona Shaw: Can be successful because otherwise I am gonna look bad. And so, although we kind of know this is not gonna work, we delay that decision and try way too long to figure it out. Or we put him under the rock because like, ah, it’s not that bad when we actually totally know. And then noticing that, oh, it’s my responsibility to that person to make them successful is one way to look at it, or to think, well, it’s my responsibility to the team to ensure everyone has the same standards and everyone’s delivering on their jobs. And that’s my team responsibilities or just even shifting slight perspectives I’m assessing a problem will lead to different decisions.

0:13:12 Ramona Shaw: Yep.

0:13:13 Cayla Horey: The team and the company as a whole.

0:13:15 Ramona Shaw: The company as a whole, absolutely.

0:13:17 Cayla Horey: Is this person in this role, again, serving us for the mission that we’ve been called to, the people that we’re serving, whatever it is that the business actually does and the people that the business serves, is it in the best interest of all of those humans and the business as a whole and the team, the other employees to keep this person? And there might be cases where it’s worth sticking it out for a little bit and seeing it’s a little bit of coming alongside and support and training or whatever could help someone be successful. There might be cases where that’s true, but there definitely are cases like you’re talking about where out of fear or out of pride or those types of things are where we do hang on to somebody longer than is good for organization, the team, or even the individual.

0:14:11 Cayla Horey: So making quick decisions, when it becomes clear, then it’s not the best fit for all of those parties. Making a quick decision to let everybody move forward to greater success.

0:14:24 Ramona Shaw: Yep.

0:14:25 Cayla Horey: Yeah, exactly.

0:14:26 Ramona Shaw: What are some additional ones? Let’s talk about a few more where you see a shift in perspective, a reframe. Is it common or happens often in your coaching conversations or with your clients, where there may be a default assumption or point of view that many of us have because of our egos or because of how we were socialized or how we see our role models, that then we realize, oh, that may not be the only one or the only way.

0:14:56 Ramona Shaw: Yeah. Yeah.

0:14:57 Cayla Horey: Well, I think one of the ways that I see this come up a lot with my clients, too, is in leaders having a view that because they’re the leader, they know the right way or they know the answer, or when a differing opinion is expressed to them, kind of getting tripped up in that and in feeling threatened or their pride coming in or however that plays out for them and keeping themselves and their team stuck, trying to hang on to their way, trying to hang on to the way that they think is best, the way that they think it should go.

0:15:41 Cayla Horey: So that’s an area that I see coming up a lot with some of the leaders that I work with specifically. I’m trying to think of other specific on that.

0:15:51 Ramona Shaw: I think it sounds sometimes like we’re saying, oh, someone is really, they’re egocentric. But often it comes from that place of thinking that as the leader, that’s what they’re supposed to be doing and a good leader is the one who has the answers, or, you know, runs the entire meeting beginning to end, or is the one who shows off and presents initiatives that they may not need to or want to, but they think that’s what a good leader should be doing.

0:16:24 Ramona Shaw: And that is the question we ought to ask yourself, too, of, is that really true? Do you need to be the one who has all the answers? Do you need to be the one who’s presenting all the initiatives and has control and knows every detail? Is that really true?

0:16:39 Ramona Shaw: Yeah. Yeah.

0:16:40 Cayla Horey: And that overlaps into what makes a good leader, right? Is the leader the one that has all the answers and that can present all the content and take the team where they need to go? Or is being a good leader being a good listener? Is being a good leader being someone who empowers other leaders to be successful? And that completely shifts what meeting looks like, what the team looks like, how these conversations go. Right.

0:17:07 Cayla Horey: So even just reframing that understanding of what good leadership is and the role, like you’re saying, the role that the leader takes on and the expectations they put on themselves of how they need to do a good job. And I really believe that part of great leadership is. I mean, the key of great leadership is empowering other leaders to be successful, empowering others, and not having to carry that burden alone.

0:17:37 Ramona Shaw: On that note of what makes a great leader, what? And empowering others, can you share a few additional behaviors that you see in your experience working with business owners and leaders that you see those who do really well, those, the behaviors that they continuously or consistently demonstrate are dot, dot, dot. How’d you end that? How would you end that sentence?

0:18:02 Cayla Horey: Yeah, such a good question. The first thing that comes to mind is along the lines of, what we were just talking about is being open to feedback and being a leader who’s willing to listen, who’s willing to be open to the views, opinions, insights from others. And by others, I mean peers, I mean people on your team that are under your level of leadership, and also clients and customers. I really think that the more that we can have ears to listen, observe, stay soft hearted and open, open eared in being willing to receive those things. Being open to feedback, I think, has such a deep impact on our greatest success as leaders, our greatest success in our organization.

0:18:54 Cayla Horey: I have worked with leaders in a variety of different industries over the last 20 years, and in my experience, the leaders that I have seen had the most leadership failure for business. I work a lot with, specifically entrepreneurs and small business owners, and the leaders that I’ve seen honestly lose their businesses. It’s the leaders who’ve not been open to feedback. It’s the leaders who felt like they need to have the answers.

0:19:25 Cayla Horey: It needs to happen their way. So I think great leadership, I think openness to feedback is critical. With that, listening with that. Again, what we were just talking about being able to empower others, build others up, not see raising up others as a threat to your leadership or any sort of hindrance to your success, but really seeing, I mean, we are only leading if someone’s following.

0:19:53 Ramona Shaw: Right?

0:19:53 Cayla Horey: And so what does it look like to help those around us achieve their greatest success? How do we as leaders, work ourselves out of a job and empower leaders around us to step up into their next level of leadership and their greatest success? And I had a leader many, many years ago now. I was probably 24 or 25 at the time, and I was on a new team, and I was the newest person on the team, and I was the youngest person on the team by at least ten years.

0:20:28 Cayla Horey: And I remember we had big project coming, and the leader who I was working with turned to me and he said, you’re going to lead us. You’re going to lead us on this project. You tell us what you need. You tell us what our jobs are. You’re in charge. And I remember at the time, my initial thought was, why the heck would it be me? I don’t know what I’m doing. It’s my first year on this team.

0:20:55 Ramona Shaw: I’m young.

0:20:57 Cayla Horey: You all have been on this team a lot longer than me. You’re older than me. I was kind of blown away that he was asking me to do this, and yet it allowed me, as a mid 25 year old, 24 25 year old. It really allowed me to step up into my leadership, and I felt believed in. I felt empowered, and it allowed me then to step into that and to take on that leadership, to lead and run this for my team. He was incredibly supportive of me.

0:21:29 Cayla Horey: The whole team regularly asked, how can we help? What do you need from us? But they really let me run and lead, and it built me. I mean, that’s a deeply impactful leadership experience that I’ve had. And it was 20 years ago, and it’s really shaped even how I think of leadership now. And what I didn’t know at the time, but I know now, is he was working himself out of a job. Part of the reason he gave it to me to do was because he didn’t want to do it right. It’s like he wanted to be freed up to focus on the visionary stuff, the bigger picture leadership stuff, and by empowering me and trusting me and entrusting me leadership as a young new leader on the team, it not only spoke belief into me and helped me step into my leadership, but it freed him up to do other things.

0:22:16 Cayla Horey: And so, yeah, so I think those are some of the things that come to mind for me. And great leadership is just really building leaders underneath us and staying soft hearted and open eared and being willing to receive feedback and really pursuing what’s best for the organization and the business as a whole.

0:22:34 Ramona Shaw: Just a quick comment on this. Sometimes we fear that, well, if I work myself out of my job, my job security may go down the drain, which actually not true. Like when we see people lead that way, there will never be out of a job. They will be called into other positions. They build that reputation. Those are usually the most sought after leaders in organizations. You can’t work yourself out of a job and not engage in other things, right? So it’s the counterbalance.

0:23:03 Ramona Shaw: But that is also a faulty assumption that sometimes holds us back. And the other quick observation of what you shared, I asked you earlier, what are some of the other reframes we may be able to relate to? And you just listed a number of them in your answer here of how we may see ourselves as leaders. That is not really effective, may feel good, or may feel like we’re doing a good job because that’s the idea of what a leader does, but that won’t lead to the results we’re really going for or may make us burned out or feel like we’re constantly trying to babysit or constantly trying to, you know, put the strings together and control everyone and hold people accountable. It’s this very controlling mindset that is exhausting to many people and just simply doesn’t work. I want to quickly double down on the point you made with asking for feedback.

0:23:55 Ramona Shaw: Leaders have a harder time getting feedback than individual contributors. Business owners have a really hard time getting feedback from other people unless they create that culture. But in many, many situations, someone may listen to this and say, yeah, I’m open to feedback, but no one’s giving me feedback or I hardly ever get any feedback. And if I ask for feedback, I only get, no, everything is great, boss.

0:24:21 Ramona Shaw: Those kinds of responses, how specifically on feedback development, feedback, what are some suggestions for people who have a hard time soliciting it?

0:24:32 Cayla Horey: Yeah, well, it’s a great question. I think that it really comes down to, you mentioned the word culture. I think it really comes down to the culture that’s being created. And the reality is, culture exists whether we’ve intentionally created it or it’s existing by default.

0:24:49 Ramona Shaw: Right.

0:24:50 Cayla Horey: And so one of the things that I worked a lot of my clients on is, let’s identify what is the culture? How would your employees describe your leadership? How would your employees describe or your teammates describe their experience of you? And how would your customers or your clients, those who are benefiting from the services, the product or the services of your business, how would they describe their experience of your culture? So I think that’s a starting point.

0:25:20 Cayla Horey: Is increasing awareness, really identifying what exists and then making intentional decisions about what is it that we want to create and how can we make sure shifts? Because you’re totally right. If there is a leader who is kind of known for being hard and not willing to receive feedback, and then he comes into a meeting, or she comes into a meeting and says, hey, how am I doing as a leader? They’re all going to smile and say, you’re doing great, and not feel safe.

0:25:53 Cayla Horey: So part of it is creating a culture of safety. And that could look different for different teams and different. Different companies, different businesses, different business sizes. It may look like doing regular one on ones and providing opportunities for people to share. It may look like doing anonymous surveys and actually sending out surveys for people to give feedback. It may look like. I mean, to be honest, in so many cases, I think it’s. It’s literally, it doesn’t even matter what the system is.

0:26:27 Cayla Horey: It’s that the setting, creating a culture where the questions are asked and the feedback is welcomed. And when the feedback is received, it doesn’t just fall on deaf ears. Something is done with it. Something is done about it. Now, does that mean that when one person gives you your opinion, you have to go do it that way? No, but again, what’s the overall culture that’s being created? Are you creating a culture of safety?

0:26:54 Cayla Horey: And are you creating a culture where your people know this is a safe place where we can give feedback, where we can each have a voice and troubleshoot together and talk together about what’s going well, what’s not going well, how could we improve? And again, I think this applies both within the organization and also with the client and customer experience. I was recently talking with one of my clients who went to a very high end mastermind. That’s quite an investment to be a part of.

0:27:26 Cayla Horey: And he and his wife had gone and been a part of this. And then there was their first session back with me. After participating and I was asking them, what was your experience, and what did you learn, and what are you going to implement? And we were kind of talking through it, and they said it was great, and it’s always worth it with relationships, all that. But they said, honestly, it was kind of underwhelming, just in terms of organization, and some of the aspects of it could have been better done, which, when you’re investing in a very high end mastermind, you want to come away not feeling that way, right? You want to come away wowed and really having enjoyed your experience, and I happen to know the leader of the mastermind, and so I asked them, did you have any opportunities to give him feedback on your experience?

0:28:20 Cayla Horey: And they have a great relationship, this couple and the leader of the mastermind. And I said, did you have any opportunities to give feedback? And they said, no. I mean, it was not asked. There was no. Now, the leader of the mastermind is not one of my clients, but if he were, I would be working with him on where can you provide opportunities for feedback? How are your mastermind attendees experiencing your mastermind, and is it what you want? Are you creating the culture that you want, or are there ways to up level it? And my guess is that he just hasn’t thought about that.

0:28:56 Cayla Horey: He’s thinking about content and getting great content out there. He’s not thinking about the different logistics that impact experience. So that’s just one example, but in so many ways that I think just creating as leaders, asking ourselves the question, are we providing a safe space for those around us to give us feedback? What are we doing with that feedback? And if we’re not, again, like you said earlier, a lot of times it’s not because we’re bad leaders. It’s just because it’s not on our radar and we’re responding to the immediate things of the day, but to slow down and just understand the critical importance of being willing to receive that feedback and creating an intentional culture within your organization where people do feel safe and do feel heard, and that the method of how you collect that, whether it’s a survey or in one on ones or in a group setting, you know, can really vary depending on the organization.

0:29:54 Cayla Horey: One more quick example. I have a client who is a, she’s a wedding planner and florist. How she does both, I have no idea. She’s amazing, and she has a team that helps her. And one of the things that we implemented into her just regular business rhythm, which she wasn’t doing at all, is after every event, I have her sit down with her team and do a quick three by three. What are three things that went really well that we want to do again in the future?

0:30:23 Cayla Horey: And what are three things that didn’t go maybe best or we could have done better or differently or tweak that we want to remember next time for the next event. And it’s a brief process, but it’s just become a rhythm where in their team meeting each week, they’re looking back at the weddings or the events that they had over the weekend and just doing a quick, all opinions matter, everybody gets to weigh in.

0:30:47 Cayla Horey: And she’s providing then an opportunity for her team to be heard.

0:30:51 Ramona Shaw: Right.

0:30:52 Cayla Horey: It’s a regular rhythm. She’s creating a culture of safety, and she’s a phenomenal leader and is phenomenal at listening and providing feedback. But it just was something that she just hadn’t thought of, you know? And as she’s created that system and her business, now those women on her team are bringing ideas that she’s saying, you know, I didn’t even think of that. That’s amazing. That’s brilliant. And she’s able to pull from the things that the others see that maybe she didn’t even see, or other experiences that they’ve had with previous jobs. And she’s gaining so much value for her business by creating that space and communicating to the women on her team.

0:31:31 Cayla Horey: Your voice matters, and your voice will be heard. Now, if one of them comes in and gives an idea that she doesn’t want to implement, she doesn’t have to. She’s the leader, you know, but just creating that culture. So whatever it looks like, it could be in a group meeting like that, or it could be anonymous or whatever, but just providing opportunities for those who are experiencing our business, either within it or again, I think this is super true also with clients and customers.

0:31:59 Cayla Horey: How are those that are benefiting from the service of our business experiencing our company? And if is it what we want them to be experiencing, or are there ways that we can make shifts? But we have to be willing to receive their feedback in order to do that. 100%.

0:32:16 Ramona Shaw: And I refer to this process, or the process that you said, part of the business rhythm. I refer to this as the leadership system. And so a prompt to everyone listening or watching us think for a moment. Where do I provide opportunities for my team to give feedback or suggestions for the future? And often, by the way, suggestions or advice lend a little better than feedback. Feedback has some emotional attachment for many people to it. But where does your team, in which forms cadence, does your team provide feedback to you or how are you soliciting it? And if there’s not nothing in your leadership system in that process or in the way that you run your team or your business, there’s nothing there that is a low hanging fruit and an opportunity for you to build that into what you call the rhythm of how you manage a lead.

0:33:10 Cayla Horey: Yeah.

0:33:11 Ramona Shaw: Yep. Totally agree.

0:33:13 Ramona Shaw: Now, as we’re coming to the close of the conversation, I want to go back to the question around coaching in itself, because what you just shared is, you know, we talk, or I talk to a client about a very specific suggestions on what they can do in order to foster a type of culture that they want to create. We talked in the beginning about reframing and seeing things from different perspectives. Let’s talk about what is the true value of having a coach.

0:33:44 Ramona Shaw: It’s an investment, not just time wise. It’s a financial commitment that you make as well to another person. And for many people, coaching is somewhat intangible. It’s like, wait, we’re just going to chat. I have a friend who chats with me.

0:33:57 Ramona Shaw: Yeah.

0:33:57 Ramona Shaw: Why should I pay someone?

0:33:59 Cayla Horey: Totally.

0:34:00 Ramona Shaw: Yeah.

0:34:00 Cayla Horey: Well, I love this question so much, and I am deeply passionate about coaching. I’ve been in the coaching industry for a long time, and I have. My life has been changed from sitting under the coaching of others. And that, I think, is why I have such a vision for it and a passion for it. I like the analogy of a movie set. Think of a movie set and think of your, for everybody listening, think of your favorite actor or your favorite actress, the most talented actor actress that you know, when they’re on scene on a set, they can only see what they can see from where they’re standing.

0:34:37 Cayla Horey: They can’t see the facial expression of the person behind them. They can’t see what’s happening over on the other side of the set. To get the highest quality film, you need those talented actors and actresses, but you also need a director, because that role of director, that director sits off set, has a different vantage point, has a different perspective, and is able to see things that when you’re in it, when you’re on scene, you don’t necessarily see from your perspective.

0:35:05 Cayla Horey: And so I love that analogy because it’s that it. It’s not the director that you see on the tv, right. That makes it to the big screen. It’s the actors and the actresses. But they’re really able to become their best selves when they had that additional outside perspective. And I think the same thing is true. When you think of, um, sports stars, right? You think of the. The top and pick your favorite sport, your favorite star in that area. It’s like these guys are, and girls are the best of the best of what they do, but they all have coaches.

0:35:39 Cayla Horey: All the top performers have coaches because they know that it really brings out the best in them to have that outside perspective, to add that additional viewpoint. And again, and the superstars are the superstars, but they are their best when they have that support and outside perspective. And I really think that that’s. That value that coaching brings. And it works the same in any industry, including business, that the top performers all have coaches and have that outside perspective.

0:36:15 Cayla Horey: When you think about the Super bowl and you think about who. Was it Patrick Mahomes and the Chiefs, or was it Andy Reid who won the Super bowl? Well, the answer is it was both.

0:36:26 Ramona Shaw: Right?

0:36:26 Cayla Horey: It takes both. It takes that combination of the super talented star and the coach, the outside perspective, to work together as a team to create the greatest result. And I really believe that that’s true in life and in business, as well as in movie and in sports, in any industry.

0:36:50 Ramona Shaw: Yeah.

0:36:50 Ramona Shaw: And I’d add, too, that I don’t think there’s anyone else, at least in, you know, in my life or in my clients lives, where an outside person, so not someone within the organization or within the team, has that perspective of, or has the goal to make me, in my case or my clients, as successful as possible. Everyone else is somewhat attached and part of the movie. Like you say, it’s only the director who says, I just want to make a great movie, or I just want to make this scene, or, you look great.

0:37:26 Ramona Shaw: Yeah.

0:37:27 Ramona Shaw: And they’re not acting in it. I think that’s very unique and different from a coach versus a manager or a peer. Now, you know, managers are peers or friends or spouses or partners. They all, especially if they ask good questions and are challenging and have that kind of sensitivity to understand what’s going on, they can be very useful and often can provide an additional support. And yet it’s the coach on the outside that that’s their sole purpose.

0:37:58 Ramona Shaw: Right.

0:37:58 Cayla Horey: Well, and I think, too, when we’re. There’s a term that we use in coaching called getting in the pool, where when a client, when a person, when a human is struggling, think back to the story that I started with of my naturopathic doctor, right? When she says, man, I’m hemorrhaging $900 this week. I gotta let this girl go. All of her friends and family are going to think, yeah, you’re, you’re hemorrhaging. Get, let’s get rid of her. Right. We’re going to agree with her story, and that’s normal and that’s natural.

0:38:27 Cayla Horey: That’s getting in the pool with the person right now. In order for me to actually help her, in order for us to actually help her get out of being stuck in that thought, grow an awareness of how that thought is impacting her, even if I agree that she’s bleeding out money, I can’t just agree with that story or she stays stuck.

0:38:49 Ramona Shaw: Right.

0:38:49 Cayla Horey: It takes someone willing to say, hey, how is that impacting you? And is it creating the result you desire? Or do we need to think about this in a way that serves you? And a lot of times when we’re the friends in the family, we want to just empathize. We want to just be in it with them. And that’s normal and that’s okay. That’s healthy. We’re not supposed to coach our spouses and our best friend unless they want it, but it’s a different approach.

0:39:14 Cayla Horey: And so I think that’s really the value is when you have a coach and work with a coach, your partner, your best friend, gets to just stay in the role of partner and best friend, and they get to empathize with you and get in the pool with you and commiserate with you of the challenges and as the coach can come in and be a coach and ask hard questions and offer different perspectives or point out where your own perspectives are actually holding you back.

0:39:43 Cayla Horey: And I think that’s a lot harder to do as a friend. Again, when I’m talking to my best friends, I just want to get in the pool with them and agree with them. But the role of the coach, effective coaching, you can’t do that. You have to stay out of the pool so that we can help the client increase awareness and get themselves out.

0:40:02 Ramona Shaw: Wonderful. Love your response and the analogy with getting into the pool. Now, speaking of coaching, tell us where people can learn more about your work.

0:40:12 Cayla Horey: Yeah, well, you can find me. My website is just my name. It’s Cayla with a c c a y l a, horry. Horey.com, caylahorey.com. I said this earlier, but I work primarily with entrepreneurs and small business owners, so you can find out all about it on the website. I have a resource there for anyone that’s interested called the growth code, where I talk about the three core pillars to really developing who you are as a leader.

0:40:44 Cayla Horey: The backbone of my approach to coaching I totally believe that our businesses will never grow beyond our capacity to lead them. And if we want our businesses to grow, then we have to grow. There’s the famous quote that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over and expecting a different result. And I think the same thing is true with leadership and business, that who we are as leaders has gotten us to where we are, right? But if we want our businesses to continue to grow and scale, then we have to think different. We have to act different. We have to step into the next level of leadership in order to expand who we are, to take our business to the next level, expand where our business is going. So I have a resource called the growth code that’s available on my website for anyone that’s interested, you can go there. And I’m on LinkedIn. Also Cayla Horey and LinkedIn and my website are the best places.

0:41:43 Ramona Shaw: Awesome.

0:41:44 Ramona Shaw: We will link to all that in the show notes hey lod, thank you so much for joining The Manager Track podcast and for sharing your thoughts around coaching, leadership development, and really how business owners and leaders benefit from that outside perspective as they grow and grow themselves and their businesses or their teams.

0:42:04 Cayla Horey: Thank you so much for having me. I could talk about this with you all day long. It’s so fun to be into like minded people and I just really appreciate you. So thank you.

0:42:13 Ramona Shaw: Same here. Thank you so much.

0:42:14 Cayla Horey: Cayla.

0:42:16 Ramona Shaw: If you enjoyed this episode then check out two other awesome resources to help you become a leader people love to work with. This includes my best selling book, the confident and competent new manager, which you can find on Amazon or@ramonashaw.com book and a free training on how to successfully lead as a new manager. You can check it out@ramonashaw.com masterclass these resources and a couple more youll find in the show notes down below.


  1. Can you think of times when your thoughts and your mindset led you to make an ineffective leadership decision? How can reframing those thoughts create a different outcome?
  2. Why is it important to be open to feedback? What are some strategies you can use to create a culture where your team feels safe providing honest feedback?
  3. In what ways can a leadership coach provide value that differs from a manager, peer, or friend? What unique perspective can a coach offer? What would the best version of you look like 6 months or a year from now if you were to work with a coach to help you reach your goals?
  4. Some leaders want to have all the answers. Why is this mindset an often ineffective one, and what strategies can you put in place to prevent this barrier to effective leadership? Are there alternative mindsets that might serve you better in your role?




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