Episode 269 Transcript:

 [00:00:00] Welcome to this episode of The Manager Track podcast. If you’re either in that category of people who thinks that emotions get in the way of achieving results, or if you fall into the category, of people who are very empathic and sometimes have a hard time either having the tough conversations, delegating work when we realize other people already have a full plate, or if generally conflict is difficult, you’d like to just maintain harmony no matter what. If any of those scenarios resonate with you, then this episode is most definitely for you.

I am talking to my colleague and friend, Elise Boggs Morales. She recently wrote the book Lead Anyone. Right here 28 days to transform your team through the power of emotional intelligence. Now, unlike many emotional intelligence books that are fairly theoretical, this book is a recap of her coaching conversations with leaders who are [00:01:00] navigating change and challenges related to emotional intelligence. So you get to be a fly on the wall in these conversations and learn through others and through these real life examples. In the conversation today, we’re gonna talk about,

how to recognize if emotional intelligence is the competence to focus on in order to get to the results that you’re looking for. We’re also gonna talk about specific ways to help you navigate either the more emotional conversations, tuning in to your team so that you can solicit open and honest conversations, or if you are someone who’s very empathic and always very supportive to team members, how to create accountability and ownership of the team so you are not the one who’s taking the burden or avoiding important conversations that needs to happen.

So we’re gonna talk about how to. Find that balancing act between the two sides of the spectrum. We’ll also talk about [00:02:00] how emotional intelligence work done on the inside can actually be measured on the outside

and those are the same KPIs that HR and senior leadership are particularly keen on developing. Lastly, we’ll talk about how your emotional intelligence impacts the culture of your organization or of your team. So the return on your investment in doing this inside work will not only help you do better

as a leader personally, but will also directly and positively impact your team and people that you work with closely. I’m excited for this conversation. I know you’re gonna love Elise, so let’s welcome her to The Manager Track podcast. 

Here are the two questions this podcast answers. One, how do you successfully transition into your first official leadership role? And two. How do you keep climbing that leadership ladder and continuously get promoted?

Although the competition and the expectations get bigger, this show, The Manager Track [00:03:00] podcast will provide the answers. I’m your host I’m your host, Ramona Shaw. I’m on a mission to create workplaces where work is seen as a source of contribution, connection and personal fulfillment. And this transition starts with developing a new generation of leaders who know how to lead. So everyone wins and grows. In the show, you’ll learn how to think, communicate, and act as a confident and competent leader you know you can be welcome to this episode of The Manager Track podcast.  Elise welcome to The Manager Track podcast. I’m really excited to have you on and look forward to this conversation.

I look forward to it too. Thank you for having me. You wrote the book Lead Anyone? I know that from the first time that we met Emotional Intelligence was sort of one of those topics that we connected over and that you are an expert in. I wanna dive right into it, what are some of the signs that.

Leaders can identify in themselves or in the people that they support or work with, that would be an indication that someone should look into developing and strengthening their emotional intelligence.

Well, you call me an expert, but I wanna make it make it clear from the beginning that this is a lifelong journey for all of us.

So I’m continually learning to be more emotionally intelligent as well. But I’ve just seen it make such a huge difference for leaders in the influence that they’re able to [00:04:00] have with those that they lead. So a lot of these things I’m gonna mention that are signs. People may not realize about themselves.

So hopefully us mentioning it will make people a little bit more cognizant as it’s happening. But a lot of times you need feedback in order to know that these things are happening. ’cause we can kind of go into autopilot sometimes. But I would say one clear indicator is that when you get constructive feedback from your team, do you tend to receive it, take action and receive it graciously?

Or do you get defensive? Do you place blame on other people? Things like that because I think when your team is giving you feedback, it’s an opportunity to build that trust, that feedback can go both ways. And people who aren’t emotionally intelligent one telltale sign is they tend to be really dismissive with other people’s concerns.

They tend to react emotionally [00:05:00] in a way that isn’t professional. And we’ll talk about how emotions can. Work for you instead of against you. But they may do things like being passive aggressive or sarcastic when somebody is trying to share honest feedback. And then I. Also just like not recognizing the emotional morale of the team.

Kind of glazing over that and just carrying on. So there’s a couple different signs, but I’d say kind of the big umbrella that I’ve kind of broken down is how do you tend to respond to constructive feedback from your team, even though you’re the leader, because they’re giving you that feedback, ’cause they care enough to know that your position allows you to make choices that affect everybody.

So if they’re, they’re brave enough to do that, whether you agree with it or not. Seeing it as a gift in modeling the way that you respond. So those are some telltale signs that maybe you wanna look at. Emotional intelligence.

So we talked [00:06:00] earlier before we hit record about sort of the two extremes on the, the spectrum of emotional intelligence.

Let’s talk a little about what that is and how people can identify where that might land on the spectrum. And then what is it that we’re actually shooting for on that lifelong journey to develop emotional intelligence?

Yeah, I think we have the tendency to kind of default to one of two extremes, and it’s kind of just your natural wiring.

You’re gonna tend either towards very direct feedback that maybe lacks finesse, maybe lacks empathy. I. Or on the other side of the spectrum, you’re very good at being empathetic and caring for people, but things are not getting done. And so those two opposite extremes are missing a major component and it’s really that we can be both empathetic.

Caring with good communication, and we can hold people accountable. [00:07:00] So that’s the happy middle where emotional intelligence really comes in, that we are being truthful, we’re being direct, but we’re also being kind in our approach to really help that person grow instead of punishing them in conversation.

So that is the ideal. 

Which means that when we look at what does it mean to grow your emotional intelligence, that actually looks different for what the person on the left side of the spectrum versus the person on the right side of the spectrum. And since in your book you talk about specific like client conversations that you had or examples, can you share an example on each side and what were the shifts that they had to make?

In order to create new results, and then what were those new results? I think that would bring it really to light to people what is possible through this effort.

Yeah. So if you know that you’re the kind of person who tends to have really direct conversations, [00:08:00] but they don’t always go as well in terms of how that person responds to you, maybe they’re shutting down or they’re giving excuses or they’re, you’re just not getting the response that you hope for.

Then for you, it may be more about how can I actually make a connection with this person in a relationship and then talk about the thing that needs to change, because people will change for somebody that they feel cares about them. So. On that side of things, it’s instead of automatically reacting in your frustration or being emotionally unregulated, which is actually very unprofessional, instead you, you notice I’m feeling very frustrated.

I’m gonna take a step back and I’m actually gonna be strategic in my communication. Instead of automatically reacting, I’m actually going to plan my response so that I am able to engage with that person in a way that they want to hear what I have to. Say they know that I [00:09:00] care about them, but we have to work together to achieve the result that we need to achieve.

That would be something that that person would do. So an example of that that I can think of is I worked with A CEO out in Colorado and his. Style was that style, and he got to the point where everybody on his executive team wanted to quit because they felt that it was a toxic style of leadership.

They felt that they couldn’t make mistakes without being shamed in front of the team. They felt that his emotions ran him instead of him mastering his emotions, and it just. Ultimately what that approach can do is create a lack of psychological safety. And when people don’t feel safe, they’re not going to engage in the way that they’re capable of and they’re not gonna perform.

And then you have retention issues, and we don’t want any of that. So what we really worked on together is just the ability [00:10:00] to, when you feel that emotion rise up, which is totally valid, to be frustrated with certain things that instead of reacting in the moment. You kind of take a step back and say, okay, I need to be strategic in the way that I’m communicating with this person.

Instead of just coming down on them. I need to ask them questions like out of curiosity to help me understand why maybe the particular issue is happening. You know, I noticed that three deadlines have been missed. I’d like to hear from you what’s. Going on so I can gain insight into how I can help you solve it, how we can work together to resolve it.

That opens up a door for collaboration. The person feels safe. They feel like you’re on their team. So that would be an example of that. And, and he worked on that for six months because he was in his fifties. So you can imagine he had an ingrained pattern of communication that was very hard to just change [00:11:00] overnight.

But he was humble enough and, and really wanted to keep his team enough that he was willing to go about it a different way. And what was really great to see is that his team immediately responded to his willingness to learn and they had a lot of grace for him. So before they would, they didn’t wanna tolerate him another minute.

As they saw him growing, they also realized that there was things they needed to grow in. They started to mirror back his growth by focusing on their own growth and their side of the equation that was contributing to some of his stress. So at the six month mark, what I can say is after working through that.

His entire executive team stayed and they not only stayed, but there was a new sense of comradery, collaboration, and trust that they had never experienced before. So that’s an example on the extreme end. That way I. On the other end would be for, for leaders that are having a challenge, [00:12:00] finding the courage to have those direct conversations.

They’re super caring, they listen to people, but sometimes that starts to enable people to just not be accountable. And so I can think of lots of examples of that because I work with engineers a lot and engineers tend to avoid. Hard conversations rather than have them just as an industry. And so really in their case, they needed a script.

They really needed a way to be able to couple, Hey, I care about you, and this is still the deadline. So what can we do to work together to ensure the deadlines met? And I mean, I, I can think of. 20 or more examples of that same scenario playing out and people that kind of, you know, planned out their response.

Were you, you do, when you’re learning a new skill. It might sound, might sound robotic a little bit, but a script of just knowing what [00:13:00] you’re going to say ahead of time and then getting some reps in, in a lot of different situations. In the situation that I’m thinking of a particular leader that used to avoid all conversations now because they see the result and how well people are responding and they’re not the ones working overtime every weekend and they can go on vacation and their team takes care of things ’cause they increase that level of accountability.

So well worth the effort. So those are kind of some examples on opposite ends of the spectrum and what growth in this area looked like for them.

I like your examples and I think a lot of people can relate, including myself to what the sort of the drawback is. And I, in the beginning you said something about the defensiveness of feedback and what I also find curious to hear your thoughts here is that when.

Leaders lack emotional intelligence. It often comes [00:14:00] back to them not through self-reflection, but through direct feedback. And that could either be. We have a team who just says it out loud and tells us, or threatens to quit if nothing changes. But often it’s also through engagement surveys through performance reviews, 360 feedback that then we identify there’s something here that’s not working and I might double down on what I wanna do because I think I just need to push harder.

And that would be the opening. To recognize like, no, hold on a second. Maybe it is in my assumptions where in, in my approach to interactions with people that something is going wrong and at least like challenge on our own thinking to imagine would there be a possibility that this is an emotional intelligence topic.

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think something leaders can do to. Not [00:15:00] have to wait until it’s so bad that they get that kind of feedback is for them to initiate those conversations ongoing is to say things like, you know, what am I doing as a leader that’s really allowing you to thrive, perform, engage. I.

And then is there anything, and I like to ask it this way, it’s appreciative inquiry, but instead of saying, you know, what are all the wrong things I’m doing as a leader? Because human nature is, you can just be defensive by human nature. Another way you might say it is, is there anything you need more of from me in order to succeed?

People tend to feel a lot safer with the, what do you need more of from me? So it, it answers the same question, just a different way. So in, let’s say they’re not getting the one-on-one meetings that they need in order to progress grow, et cetera. Well, if you’re saying, what do I need to fix? I, you are never available.

You’re not accessible. I need one-on-one meetings versus, what do you need more of from me? I need more touchpoint with you. I need more regular meetings so that we’re on the [00:16:00] same page. That’s a really pretty easy way to give feedback, receive feedback. You’re kind of using the art of communication to create an environment where communication flows a little bit easier.

But I’d say leaders who are a little bit more proactive in asking for feedback, you are basically strategically not waiting till it gets so bad that there might not be as much time to fix it. I wanna double down a little bit on that question on that topic of being too in tuned to emotions like already.

Worrying about what other people might feel or how they’re doing, and so instead of actually asking or addressing it and trusting that the other person will be able to cope and navigate it no matter what, we then, based on these interpretations or assumptions, hold back on saying what needs to be said on delegating, what should be delegated and so forth.

What specific suggestions do you have for someone who totally relates to this? [00:17:00] To go back today after listening to this episode and make one change, what’s that shift that you recommend 

Well, I think that we think we’re caring for people by, you know, maybe coddling their emotions, but actually we can help people become resilient by being guides through that, not only through modeling it ourselves.

So when we hit bumps in the road and we’re human and we feel emotions is, we acknowledge the emotion. Yes. And then we talk about. How we’re going to move forward from here. So part of it is modeling it yourself, and the other part is, you know, I think it’s a both. And is that when you’re noticing that somebody’s having a hard time?

The way that you kind of couple that with accountability and not feeling guilty that you’re giving them something maybe in the midst of all of that is, is to acknowledge it. So, hey, it seems like this has been a tough week. I really wanna support you in your goals, [00:18:00] so let’s talk about how we can do that.

Let’s talk about how even when things are tough, that we know how to navigate them together. And I’m really confident. You’re gonna be resourceful enough to be able to figure it out, but I’m here to support you as well. So I think some people need to be taught resilience. They, they can get stuck in, in one way or the other, that they either completely melt with the emotion or they completely don’t feel the emotion at all.

Carry on, and then it comes out sideways anyway because they’re short with somebody or they miss a deadline because they’re not focused. So acknowledging, but then finding a way forward with a lot of encouragement I think is a great combo. So if somebody were. To do that right away, I would just say don’t, you’re not actually helping somebody by allowing them to stay stuck.

You’re helping somebody by acknowledging how they’re feeling and helping them move [00:19:00] through it so that they learn to be resilient because I. There’s always gonna be something that comes up. And so the more that they can kind of be guided to keep moving forward even with what they’re feeling, and obviously you have to gauge based on the circumstances that are, may, maybe causing those feelings, you’ve gotta gauge what’s appropriate.

But that’s just a general principle that I think can really work well for leaders. And actually you’re caring by somebody, by helping them grow, not by just letting them stay stuck.

I think when we have these conversations every time someone says to me, you know, I had a really hard time, or, I’m really struggling, or I have too much on my plate, and then I say you know, later on in the conversation, Hey, let’s talk about your priorities right now.

What needs to happen or here’s something that I’d like to delegate and I’m being, and I acknowledge, look, I understand that this [00:20:00] is a difficult time. This is you have a lot on your plate, but I wanna work together with figuring out what can be done and cannot be done. And then I throw, I throw the ball over to their court to say. You tell me now what to navigate. I’m not just dumping it on you, and then I disappear. I’m actually working with you through this, and every time I feel that there was a bit of growth in the conversation where they start to feel more comfortable telling me no, they feel more comfortable renegotiating deadlines or even realigning on priorities, and that’s ultimately, as a leader, that’s what I want.

I want them to tell me what’s doable and what feasible. Not to just like, you know, say yes and then go back. Mm-hmm. And feel depleted and feel that I mistreated them in some, way or that I overburdened them, but instead that we can have that open dialogue. Yes.

That’s perfect. Well, well, but for a [00:21:00] long time I felt that need to sort of take things on, and I see this now all the time in conversations with leaders who are very empathic, that there is this tendency to assume what other people are capable of, and they may actually be totally right.

It’s not to say you’re wrong, that’s actually probably right. But by not having the conversation, it misses out on that opportunity for open dialogue and collaboration and for them to learn to say no to me. And I’ve been in situations where I had, I was working with someone who did not wanna say no. And I remember saying, I need you to say no to something because I knew it wasn’t gonna all happen or it wasn’t gonna turn out well, or it wasn’t gonna be like what they wanted it that week to look like.

And then once I gave them almost the mandate to, or the permission to say no, we started to have that conversation. And through that experience, it kind of opened up this new. Way of [00:22:00] communicating together where they felt more comfortable saying no. Mm-hmm. Because they realized it was a bit of an expectation I had that they would tell me honestly and not behind my back what’s, what’s right and what’s wrong.

Well, you obviously, and I think one of the key components of emotional intelligence is creating enough psychological safety that people can be honest about their limitations about you know, things that are affecting their performance and that it starts to become a two-way conversation where you’re collaborating together about, okay, what do we need to shift on your plate so that this is doable?

So the example you shared just opened up. The opportunity for somebody to be honest and and honesty gives us the data that we then need to have solutions when we don’t create psychological safety by flying off the handle or making assumptions or coming down harder, instead of trying to find the root cause behind people’s performance issues.

What we [00:23:00] end up doing is robbing everybody of the opportunity to actually get the data needed to solve problems so. This type of approach isn’t soft in the sense that it’s circumventing results. It’s actually creating an environment where the root cause of issues can be discovered because it’s safe.

And then now that we know the root, we can solve it, and then that lends itself to results. So emotional intelligence is often seen as the antithesis of actually being productive and getting results, but just by pushing somebody harder, you’re not gonna get results. Understanding. Hmm. Why those results aren’t there because a person feels free enough to share.

Maybe they don’t feel competent and they need training, or there’s a dynamic on the team that’s keeping them from really being engaged and focused. If we can discover that because they’re open, we can help them solve it, and then the results are a bar byproduct of, of getting that good information.

Think so much of that sounds so [00:24:00] intuitive, but it’s also, and I notice, you know, I from observing others in through my own journey, it is really sort of, you know, step by step of a process that takes time sometimes to get people to feel safe and have these open conversations. And sort of for us as a leader to navigate through, when is it time to withdraw a bit and, you know let it go.

When is the time to really step in and lean and push a little bit more based on how we are observing other people’s emotions and then the results that they’re creating. You mentioned briefly how it helps to. With decision making, it helps us have more data to problem solve and to look holistically at how our department or our teams or organization is functioning.

Decision making is heavily influenced by emotions. Mm-hmm. And so one of the topics that I’d love to quickly talk about is what do we learn from developing emotional intelligence to just get [00:25:00] better at making decisions, not people related decisions, but business related decisions. 

I think that we just have to realize that emotions are there, whether we acknowledge them or not.

It’s not like, well, if we don’t acknowledge ’em somehow they go away. We’re human beings. So emotions, whether we’re expressing them outwardly or feeling them inwardly, they. Affect how we interpret situations. So often the meaning that we give a situation, whatever the the situation is, then we have an emotion that follows.

So if I observe a situation and I have a negative assessment of a person, well now I have a negative. Emotion of frustration attached to it, and then all of a sudden that affects my decisions and how I interact with them. But aside from the people and just business decisions, you know, emotions can be misleading.

So I think that we have to say that’s part of being human. And we definitely wanna acknowledge [00:26:00] emotions, but we don’t want them to run the show. So whether it’s a positive or negative emotion, so let’s say it’s a negative emotion, then, that could cloud our judgment as to what’s really going on. Maybe assessing a risk accurately.

It could be, you know, maybe you feel really excited about something. So then you totally disregard a devil’s advocate in the room that’s actually telling you, oh, we should be concerned about these things, but your emotion is on a high, so you just plow forward. So I think just recognizing that our emotions are a starting point, but at the end of the day, we still have to get the information that.

That we base decisions on, because emotions can be extremely misleading. So for instance, the emotion of fear that could cause you not to take risks, but if you actually looked at the data concerning the risk you wanted to take or [00:27:00] conferred with people who have taken similar risks and actually the facts in terms of a decision.

Then maybe fear wouldn’t have to make that decision for you. It would be facts and logic that make the decision for you. Or maybe you have another kind of fear that causes you to micromanage because you think that you know, somebody’s not gonna do it the way that you’re gonna do it and it’s gonna leave a bad impression with clients and you might lose client work.

Well, why don’t. Instead of just micromanaging, getting a really good look at that person’s competencies where they need training, you know, creating a gradual plan of introducing them to clients so that the time that they’re in front of clients alone, it’s been such a gradual process that they’re ready for it.

So. Those are cases where emotions can cloud decision making and why it would be important to not let those dictate what you do, but instead to actually get the facts. [00:28:00] We do a lot of, assuming it’s just human nature, because there’s so many things that happen in a day that we’re giving meaning to, but our meaning.

Based on our experiences, our triggers, our filters, and our values, it’s not always based on reality. So before we make a decision, when we’re feeling a strong emotion, whether it’s positive, like, I’m so excited about this and I wanna plow forward, or I’m very fearful and I don’t think we should do this.

When you’re feeling those strong emotions is to say, I think I’m making some assumptions here. I think I need to get the facts and then let the facts inform my emotions, because the facts can actually change your emotions. When you get the right data, a different emotion will follow, and you wanna be kind of making decisions with emotions that are more peaceful, that are more calm, that are more grounded, things like that.

Is there a [00:29:00] exercise or some some kind of model, mental model that you use to get the emotions out of the equation and start with the facts or orient yourself around facts? 

Well, there’s kind of like a common kind of. Automatic story that we go through, I should say, stages we go through when we react to something.

So let’s say there’s something that you wanna have a different reaction to. You realize that your reaction is unreliable or ineffective or whatever it is. You cannot self will a different reaction because there’s things before that you have to look at that will dictate however you respond or react. So the first thing is let’s say you get triggered by something.

What is the story or meaning you are giving that situation? So, let’s say that somebody, you know, comes in late every single day, and that really triggers you because you have a [00:30:00] value of, you know, being on time and respectful of people’s time, and you don’t know anything about why that person’s late.

You just make the assumption that they don’t care about people’s time. So the, so the event is they’re late. The trigger or the trigger in the event are one and the same. Your, your story about it is that they don’t care about people’s time. Well, what emotion is likely to follow from that? Probably a lot of frustration.

So when you’re frustrated, what are you probably going to do? You’re probably gonna make sarcastic remarks. You’re probably gonna roll your eyes, you’re probably gonna sigh, or you might even make a comment. So if, if you’re wanting to go through an exercise where you start to challenge the way you’re reacting to things, it would be to start with, I need to get the facts about what’s actually going on with this person being late.

Because if I change that story. Then my emotion will follow differently, my response will follow differently. [00:31:00] So let’s say you sit the person down and you say, Hey, I’ve noticed, you know, the last three meetings that you’ve been 10 minutes late, and, you know I’d really like us all to be on time. And so I’m wondering for you, what seems to be the obstacle to arriving on time for you, and you don’t make any assumptions about their character. You just assess the or you just address the behavior and they may say something to you like, this past month, my wife used to drop off the kids at school, but now I’m dropping the kids off at school and I can’t always predict how long I’m gonna be in that long line.

And I either make it on the dot or I’m like 10 minutes late. And so then you could ask a question, are you gonna continue to be the person to drop off or is this just a short term thing? I think I’m gonna continue to be the person. Okay. So maybe we need to regroup with the group and see if we can start 15 minutes later so that everybody can be in the meeting.

You just problem [00:32:00] solved because you got the data. So I think like that exercise of going through, what’s the trigger, what’s the story, what’s the emotion? What’s the reaction? So now we revisit. I need to get the facts so that the story could potentially change. The emotion then to follow could change. My response is now different.

And I think these are just things to be aware of every day because I would just say that in general as human beings, we make a lot of assumptions and we don’t really take the time to ask the clarifying questions that would actually give us the information to change the story, which then ultimately could change our response.

Yeah. And how many times did we react to something and then learned that the story was not what I thought the story was. Yeah. Except for this time we’re trying to do it before we, we initiate the conversation. Absolutely. Well, at least these were some really good insights that you shared here.

[00:33:00] What is something that we haven’t talked about yet that you think is important for people to be aware of?

I think something really important is just to realize the far reaching effects and ripples of being an emotionally intelligent leader. That it’s not just for you, it’s actually shaping the culture because whatever leaders.

Protect whatever leaders, promote whatever leaders punish, whatever leaders don’t put up with that shapes culture. And so if you’re noticing that the culture of your organization isn’t as open as you wish it was, or creative or collaborative, or innovative, or if you notice that hard conversations aren’t being had, or you notice that there’s a retention issue, you know, a lot of those things.

There’s a saying that says People don’t leave companies. They leave bosses. And that’s not the only reason people leave, but sometimes it is a primary reason why people leave. And [00:34:00] so not to underestimate. The investment on return that you will receive by investing in your own growth because you begin to model to people that this is how we do things here.

And think about how much time your HR is spending on investigations. Think about how much time your, your HR is spending on rehiring and training and doing all of these. Things that may be emotionally intelligent leadership could have circumvented, and so the only way that people learn emotional intelligence is often by watching it modeled well.

When they can see an image of somebody handling a very stressful situation with calm, they now can emulate that They see it and now they emulate it. Just like kids, they learn from their parents how to respond to situations or how we look at the flight attendants with turbulence and we see that they’re calm so that we say it’s okay for me to [00:35:00] be calm ’cause they know what they’re doing, hopefully.

So all that to say, you know, a lot of what gets focused on in organizations are the things that seem to have a very measurable and tangible return. And so sometimes we don’t focus on these things because we think that they’re not measurable or tangible, but. The work you do on the inside to become emotionally more intelligent, the way it’s measured on the outside can’t be underestimated in, in terms of the culture that you’re creating.

And three areas that I always see get better with leaders that work on this particular skill are engagement, performance, and retention. Those are the three areas that, that if you were to measure year to year. With emotionally intelligent leadership being worked on, you would see a correlation. Engagement, performance, and retention.

Mm-hmm. These are the three KPIs that HR is [00:36:00] paying attention to. Right, right. Thank you so much. Again, I really enjoyed reading the book and especially for someone who sort of likes to be a fly on the wall in conversations and learn through conversations that other people have, or mistakes that other people make.

If you resonate with this kind of style, you’re gonna love this book. Elise, thank you so much for being on The Manager Track podcast. We will link to the book as well as your website in the show notes. It’s been just, it’s such a pleasure being a colleague of yours and seeing the work that you do sort of from afar, but also up close at times.

Elise, thanks for being on the podcast. Thank you, Ramona. 

 If you enjoyed this episode then check out two other awesome resources to help you become a leader people love to work with This includes free masterclass on how to successfully lead as a new manager Check it out at archova.org/masterclass

The second resource is my best-selling book The Confident and Competent New Manager: How to Quickly Rise to Success in Your First Leadership Role Check it out at archova.org/books or head on over to Amazon and grab your copy there You can find all those links in the show notes down below