[00:00:00] Okay, Andrea, welcome to The ManageR Track podcast. I’m excited to have you honest a guest today.

Oh wait, I lost, I can’t hear you.

Say something. No. Why did that just happen? Can you hear me?

Can you go on the bottom it says like audio, video share. What does it say on that arrow?

I cannot hear that.

That’s weird. Just as we hit record, um. You can hear me still. [00:01:00] Okay. My speaker is on. Lemme double check that one more time. Yep.

What is do, do you see that there where it says audio and it’s connected to the right audio?

Okay. Um, since you can hear me, why don’t we go back to the Zoom link and we’ll see. There you went. 

can hear me now. 

Yeah. Oh, that’s odd. Okay, good. Well, we’ll try again. 

All right. 

Okay, Andrea, welcome to The Manager Track podcast. I’m excited to have you on as a guest today.

It’s great to be here. Thanks for having me, Ramona. 

So one of the things that stood out to me about your work was your [00:02:00] intentional focus on calling out when are we being too nice and when does that get in the way? And sort of how we overall think about niceness in the work workplace. And you just. Distinguish or differentiate between being nice and being kind to get the conversation started.

I’d love for for us to start right there. Um, can you share a bit more about what intrigued you to pick up this topic and, and investigate and talk about it? Uh, and then what is the definition for being nice and how do you define being kind or what’s the difference between the two?

So my company’s name is a Three Culture Lab and the A three star stands for authenticity accountability. Autonomy and they are the three levers that I see in high performing teams across the globe. And there’s a synergy. And this concept of nice versus kind came out as I was looking at blockers for people to show up [00:03:00] authentically. I don’t mean oversharing in the workplace. When I say authentic, there’s a definition to that as well, but it’s a form of consistency and people know what to expect. It has a balanced emotional intelligence with emotional awareness in there, what I found is that my clients that were being nice. is generally when it’s about us, we wanna be perceived some way.

We want to be liked, we want to be accepted. We want people to, you know, feel good all the time. Not that we wanna make them feel bad when we’re being kind, but kind is a shift where we are. Looking at the other individual and showing up for them in the way that they need us to show up versus our own personal agenda of being liked. So nice is often avoiding saying the hard thing, whereas kindness does it in a way that’s constructive. [00:04:00] Fosters growth, addresses a challenge and is in benefit and service to those around us. And holds us accountable for what our accountabilities are. A nice manager is not giving the, the constructive feedback where there’s opportunities a kind manager, as an example, is the person that steps in and offers to help.

Offers to help them cease things from a different way, is pushing things forward for the team. And they have the courage to step in. And it’s not about being disliked, it’s about being respected with integrity of saying the hard thing in a manner moves people forward. prime differential is nice when we’re being nice.

It’s generally our own agenda. things that we’re trying to show up for and be perceived as [00:05:00] kind is when we are showing up as our authentic self in service to others to move things forward. 

Can you share a example of how either with a team or an individual leader. You help them from going from being nice to being kind? Because when I think about the conversations I have with leaders who are sort of, you know, wired from often, from a young age on to operate with niceness and to make sure that people around them always feel good and they really care about the relationship and there is a lot that goes into that transition from being nice to being kind.

Can you shed some more light on that journey?

The kind leader shares supports the relationship going forward. Rather than just the moment that they’re in. And so I’ve worked with a leader [00:06:00] that had inherited a team and they were really challenged ’cause they knew and they were empathetic that they, there’d been a reorg, they inherited this team and they really just wanted to be liked. But they also knew they had to upskill some individuals on the team. And rather than giving some direct. Constructive feedback based on patterns that they’ve witnessed In basing it in fact and and known truths they would. the conversation, they’d start taking away perhaps responsibilities. ’cause you know it’s not their best thing.

Maybe I just won’t give it to them. And so they actually inadvertently started diminishing these individuals who still had great potential, still had great opportunity. It was just a time this organization needs to level up because they wouldn’t step in and say, you’re really great at these. Four things, but this fifth [00:07:00] thing is this area of opportunity that in order for us to go from here to there, we’re gonna need a different way of going forward.

And here’s the observations that I have and here’s how it’s going to go. That’s what a kind conversation would be. But this nice leader just would avoid it or delegate it to somebody else and it made them feel really good. ’cause they’re not having to give the hard conversation of, this is not your best. Um, level of performance in this area, and this is the area of opportunity and the team needs this for you. That’s the kind of conversation, and they thought they were being nice by not giving them feedback that they may not wanna hear and people can see through that, It, it’s, it’s a form of a mask that we’re wearing.

They’re not saying the unsaid thing and. People start not believing in what you say [00:08:00] said things. what that leads up to is this lack of trust, this lack of really the accountability and the belonging. And so when the leader was able to like step in and get their own needs and ego out of the conversation. And say the hard thing. That individual actually had some awareness. Yeah. I’m not really comfortable in that. That’s outta my comfort zone. And felt supported than criticized. So we often think of feedback is about, you know, could be bringing somebody down, but instead I like to proposition that it’s lifting others up. You see potential in them, you see an opportunity and you’re helping them get there. In a way that supports and meets them where they’re at. It’s not doing it for them, but it’s supporting them. And if you avoid it, [00:09:00] you’re actually being not nice. You’re not being kind, but you are making everybody feel good in that moment.

But tomorrow that elephant is still gonna be in the room and it’s still gonna awkward and people are gonna feel diminished.

In one of those questions that I think really, excuse me, in one of those questions that I think really hits home is when we think about, when was a time where I did something, I was unaware that I was doing it, what I, that I wasn’t good at, and no one told me. And I later received feedback and wished I had gotten that feedback way earlier.

Or I got some kind of feedback, but it wasn’t direct enough and I wish someone would have just pulled me and as to, pulled me aside and said, you got spinach in your teeth. You, you know, speaking, but like metaphorically speaking. But someone have said like, when you do this. It creates that kind of response, or you [00:10:00] might be perceived that way and we wish someone would’ve said that.

Most of us have an example that we can think of over the last few years or even months, where that was the case and that happened and we wanted someone to say that for us, and that would’ve been, we would’ve considered that the kind thing to do.

Absolutely the kind leader doesn’t care. Care less, I would argue that they care more. They care more enough to put themselves out of their own comfort zone where nice lives when we’re all just nice and we’re fine. And the, the, especially in North America. Yes. Somebody, how you’re doing today? Oh, I’m doing fine, I’m doing great. then there’s actually a whole bunch of reality around that that may or may not be true, but it’s the nice thing. Say it’s the, the expected response. So when we can, dare say stop being selfish in our niceness and be truly kind, [00:11:00] be truly empathetic and hold other, pe other people up to that autonomy and accountability. They do appreciate it more. They’re like, thank you for telling me I have spinach in my teeth. I could say and be doing everything else, but I’ve got this that’s sticking out and it’s distracting from how I can achieve some results and to help me with that rather than bring me down. 

Now to make this a bit more practical, um, I think many of us would say intellectually, I totally understand, but then in the moment when I’m actually called or when I notice I need to step in and give this feedback, and I have the best intentions. I set up a one-on-one conversation, or I have this feedback conversation.

I go into it and as I am talking, I notice how [00:12:00] I’m starting to sugarcoat or I would add things such as, you know, you are doing great. It’s everything’s awesome. It’s just this one little thing. That we have to change when in fact, I intended to go in and say, look, overall your performance is on the right track, but we have like this, this gap in front of us that we still need to close.

And so. The things that I say are then not what I really think and what I intended to say. How do you get a company or a team or leaders to actually transition? What are some of the, the specific exercises that you might do with clients, specific principles or norms that you set in place that the listener now someone who hears that and is like, yeah, that’s totally me, has somebody, is on what to do after they finish this podcast?

Absolutely, and it starts with each individual. Leader and colleague. This works also in giving feedback, know, [00:13:00] across the matrix of an organization and in, in any interaction that we’re having and the. Number one thing I have my clients do is before that interaction, especially if it’s on the calendar and you know that you’re gonna step into this versus freeform, sometimes it’s easier to start when know it’s on the calendar, but you take a few moments before the interaction and you pause and you set an intention.

How do I want them to feel when they leave? The meeting and that could look like, I want them to feel supported. I want them to see the opportunity and be excited or motivated to grow. I want them to know that, you know, this is progress, not perfection, and that I’m moving them forward. I don’t want them to feel. Criticized or belittled or, [00:14:00] you know, walk away without awareness. So if I set the intention in like 30 seconds of how I want them to feel, ’cause they’re gonna remember what you, how you made them feel before they remember what you said in that interaction. You take a breath in and say, I prepared to do that? are my blockers? What am I nervous about? And then you gotta shake it off and step into that fear so that you can build your own confidence and show up for them. That’s the best thing that you can do, is just take those few moments before your interaction and check in with yourself. So again, set the intention, check in with yourself as to how you’re feeling about it. What’s your blockers? Keep that in check, but step into it be brave. And then I also add in afterwards, reflect did I show up the way [00:15:00] I intended? Did I sugarcoat it? One of my least favorite methods out there is the sandwich method where you say something nice and then you give ’em the critique and then you give them something nice again at the end. Um, people do a lot of sugarcoating on the outsides of that sandwich, and then the, the nice stuff is stuck in the center and people don’t know what to do with that. So be there and make them feel supported. would you like to be supported? What does that sound like to you? How do they receive things?

Get curious about the other individual and eventually you’ll do that in the flow of work. You won’t have to set it up as a meeting on your calendar, but it takes practice and it takes knowing that you need to get out of your comfort zone where nice lives in order to stop sugar coating. 

Right. Um, with the, [00:16:00] with with what you said about, with what you said about thinking with what you said about, uh, starting off at asking yourself, how do you want them to feel? Um, a bit of a, a maybe a, a challenge. Let me say that again. When you said, now, when you said that, you start with thinking about how you want them to feel.

Is there ever a case where it would make sense to say, I actually want them to feel,

I actually want them to feel. Like a little bit of the sting because when I look at when did I grow the most and what really create a behavioral change, it was often not exclusively, but it was often because I heard some feedback. That hit heart for a moment and I was like, oh wow. The what? Right? And I had to take a break and pause and really reflect, but it, I didn’t [00:17:00] particularly feel good.

I probably felt supported that someone really cared and someone really wanted me to change and wasn’t. Invested in my success, but I personally probably felt a little bit criticized at the end of that, or a whole lot criticized, but it led to progress. Is there ever a moment when we’d say, you know what, it’s okay if this hurts for a moment, um, because that kind of hurt is the catalyst to growth.

I’m curious to hear your perspective on that.

it, it will be uncomfortable when I say, how do you wanna make them feel? And if the nice part of you is like, I want them to feel good, well, you’re gonna tell ’em something that’s not gonna make anybody feel good. So you want to, to use your words, make them feel supported yet, so when that. Uncomfortable truth comes forward, that you’re going to be brave enough to share with them. You’re offering a support path forward. They [00:18:00] might need to leave that conversation and contemplate and say, okay, what does this feedback mean for me? And what do I wanna do about it? Give them that space. But the kind person is cognizant about how the other person feels. They also know it’s going to be awkward, it’s going to be uncomfortable, and they’re willing to go and dance in that.

moment with that individual. ’cause they believe in them, they wanna be there for them, they wanna be there for the team. And it’s what the organization needs. It’s what the team needs. It’s what that individual needs to get to that next level. So. If you want them to feel like they’ve like, oh, this is great news. Even though you’ve told me I have to like course correct, 50% of what I do in life, that’s just not reality. The reality is it’s going to be uncomfortable. But if we don’t share that with someone and we’ve seen it, [00:19:00] especially if we are accountable for their performance as their people manager, then we’re not doing our job. And we’re not giving them the opportunity into the growth that they’re capable of. People 

Mm-hmm.

if they’re not capable of it? Well, that’s another hard truth that needs to be shared, and you have to ask them if they’re willing to step it up, um, and offering that support and what is at your disposal. not doing it for them. They have to take accountability and action on the feedback that you’re giving them, and if they do or don’t, that’s their choice, but you’ve at least opened the choice for them. 

Yeah. And then at some point you have to decide whether, you know, trying to have a, a aro, a round P fit into a square hole or not. [00:20:00] Uh, but I wanna talk about AC accountability in a bit before.

Ramona, I’ve lost. I lost hearing you a moment. You’re back now. It, 

I’m back now. 

heard you. I 

Okay.

accountability for a bit. 

Can you hear me now? Okay, thanks for calling it out. Um, so I, I wanna, I wanna talk a little bit more about what you shared around accountability, but before we get there, one more question. I can imagine that someone listening to this we’ll say, Hey, my problem is actually. Not that I don’t have the courage to be kind and to call out what needs to be called out and address the elephant in the room.

My problem is that people that I’m working with, especially younger generations and I’m calling this out ’cause this is often what I hear they’ll say, they are not willing to hear the feedback. They, I will get reprimanded. [00:21:00] If I am being kind and direct, ’cause then it’s gonna lead to someone complaining to HR about what I said, or it turns into this whole downward spiral because I was being too direct, too fast in, in So in a way that I think is wholly normal and acceptable, but to people from different backgrounds or different cultures, or people who have a different expectation in the workplace, to them that just doesn’t seem the same way.

They’re not looking at it. What, what do you have as, what do you suggest or advice leaders in such a situation?

if your style is to be blunt and direct, you’re not taking into consideration. The people that are receiving the information are, do they need to process data? Do they, how are, are they visual thinkers? What is the [00:22:00] communication style? Regardless of generation or, or. Career level of the individual that you’re communicating to. So emotional intelligence has numerous layers. The first layer being I understand my emotions and perspectives and I can regulate it. The second is I understand other people’s emotions and perspectives. And then the third is I understand other people’s emotions and perspectives, and I adjust my behavior in accordance to support and meet them where they need. What I find with folks that are like, well, I give ’em the feedback, and then their HR is complaining. are. Yes, being direct, but they’re not doing it in a way that can be received by the individual. So stylistically, are you flexing as an individual that you’re speaking so that they understand in a way that’s actionable for them, takes them [00:23:00] forward rather than causes them to go into panic when we are in fight or flight. And feeling threatened, you’re not gonna get the results It’s, it’s a harsh aspect, and that’s not kind either. It’s if you know somebody that needs to process. You give them examples, you’ve lo watched, patterns you’ve observed, and you can put it in context and you get curious about what’s your perspective.

I’m sharing this feedback and these observations. What else is going on here? You’ve gotta get curious because if you just come in and say, these are my observations, this is what you need to change, and you don’t engage them. You are still, you’re doing command and control. You’re dictating the choices for the individual and they’re not gonna be accountable for it.

They’re not gonna embrace it ’cause they’re not part of the process. [00:24:00] So you have to engage them and understand what their perspective is because what you tell them is not always what they hear. And they’ve told you point blank what they think their challenge is and you’ve explored that with them.

’cause often what the first thing we say is not really the hardest truth that we’re facing. It’s like the top easiest one to share, but it might be, I don’t feel confident. Whereas folks will say, well, I have a hard time working with that team. Well, I don’t feel confident because they’re subject matter experts in that and I have to go in and influence them. It’s all about confidence at the heart of it. if you are telling the hard truth without any contextualization and curiosity, it’s you got, you gotta remember it’s your truth, it’s your perspective, it’s your in insights. But if you haven’t taken into consideration their [00:25:00] perspective, you’re not gonna move the dial. How are they thinking about themselves? Do they think they’re really awesome at this? Well, you’re gonna have to burst that bubble, but do it in a way that makes them wanna get awesome at it, not burst the bubble.

I think what you clearly highlight is this is all about flexing the style. Whether, whether you like it, right? Whether you agree with it or not. It, that’s really besides the point. ’cause if you’re in a working relationship with someone who sees it different, has a different preference and a different style would land with them versus what you are used to or what lands with you when someone gives you feedback.

And if you think that is the right way and the only way, uh, that’s gonna diminish your own impact and influence. So ultimately it’s all about recognizing whether whatever I think is, is not relevant. It’s all about how do, how do I make sure that it lands given that person where their that person is at and what they’re expecting.

and I would add [00:26:00] in that you’re validating that you’re being heard. That sounds 

Mm-hmm.

what? Are your thoughts on this? What are some of your about what I’m sharing with you? How would you envision improving in this area or moving the dial in this area? Engaging them in it. And this is whether it’s a growth opportunity or that you’re giving the hard feedback on or persuading somebody about, you know, engaging more on a project or just even trying to understand the status of something that’s going on that you’re concerned about or that you’re curious about when you engage somebody else, that you want to be accountable for something. Versus just telling them how it is or what they need to do, and you validate whether they’re comprehending that through questions and like, how will we know we’re moving the [00:27:00] dial here and getting their perspective? You’ve simply told them it hasn’t landed. Landing. Isn’t that validation? 

Yep. Well, let’s talk about the, the three A. Uh, you. Okay. Um, so let’s talk about the three. Let’s talk about the three a’s that you mentioned earlier. In addition, oh, let me just redo that. Let’s talk about the three a’s that you mentioned earlier that make up sort of the, the core framework of the work that you do with leaders.

Can you elaborate on the three a’s a little bit more?

in an A three culture, uh, it really is about teams that are based in authentic pre presence, consistency, aligned values. So authenticity is the first One I can talk about how you get authentic in a second. Autonomy is this [00:28:00] idea of scaling and being a. Owner of your own work, if you will, then leads into accountability when you own your own work and own does not mean that you have every decision and that you’re, know, you’re, you’ve gone in as a manager and just handed it over to the team and abandoned it. When you have employees that own their work, they are more accountable to their work. let’s break that down. Authentic leadership is really showing up in a consistent presence that’s aligned with the values. People know what to expect, whether you’re bringing them, they’re bringing you good news or bad news. Um, and I don’t mean they know what to expect, where like it’s the 1990s movie where. Like folks go running and pretending they’re working when they know the boss is coming in. I, I mean, they know that you are going to be open to hearing what the situation is and that you’re going to be able to process things through in an emotionally [00:29:00] regulated manner.

You’re still gonna hold people accountable. They’re still a consequence for it, but you have this consistency about you that does not, um, really make people. Uncomfortable you’re able to build trust. Authentic leaders build trust. So the whole fake it to you, make it, you’re wearing a mask and that mask will fail. And when you fail, ’cause you will fail at some point. progress over perfection. So authenticity and showing up with consistency. In order for you then to create autonomy, which means you’re leading through others, so you need to let go of the execution that maybe you did as an individual contributor, as a people manager.

You’re getting work done through others and you. Hold them accountable by collaborating with them, getting them part [00:30:00] of the process for how things are going to be done. And it might not be the exact way you do it. That’s part of that letting go and the autonomy, but they might actually have a better way to do it, and they create that ownership. Through accountability. It’s an infinity loop, if you will, that you get people then who are more authentic. They’re showing up in an honest and true NA nature. You have trust across the team, and again, this is not oversharing and it’s not like over explaining everything that’s going on. It’s just a consistency in how you show up in the work environment so that people know what to expect. And for others to be able to collaborate with you in a proactive way. And so this A three culture is one that really sparks growth because you don’t have. The stress intentions [00:31:00] of the lack of the things that are unsaid, the elephants in the room, the politics that are going back and forth because it is a collaborative environment in that infinity loop.

One of the things we talk about here on the podcast every so often is this difference between vertical leadership, how we tradit look at leadership to I manage you. I tell you, um, kind of way to more of a horizontal leadership culture where we all see each other as equals now. Not equal job responsibility, not equal decision authority, um, but equal in the sense that we’re all humans and we all see each other as.

Individuals coming to the workplace with the need to contribute, with the need to have, not just the need, but also bringing in their unique perspective. And we wanna give them a, a voice obviously, and we all see each other as in equal, uh, on that level. That [00:32:00] then completely changes how we engage with each other.

And in your. Three culture. I recognize as you’re talking about this and as I was reading about it, how much of that mindset is interwoven and you’re, how practical you make it to say, yeah, we all wanna have autonomy, we all wanna have our own, you know, strength and values be seen and be able to contribute.

We all wanna have a in work environment where we feel respected for who we are and what we bring to the table.

Absolutely, and we are equal in that we are all humans. We all have agency. We all have our own aspirations. It’s creating clarity as a leader and what the accountabilities are, the ex in setting expectation. will have, you know, leaders tell me, well, I’ve told them they’re empowered, they’re they’re [00:33:00] autonomous.

And I go, yeah, but do they still have to check with you before they go to the next step? Well, yeah, I need to know what’s going on. Well, yeah, then they’re not empowered, they’re not autonomous. how do I know what they’re gonna be doing? I go, well, you ask them. Right. You say, what’s the plan? Share with me.

And it’s not, uh, they have to give you a breakdown of everything. Now, it depends what level in the organization. I’m gonna caveat some of this. There are some in, in certain organizations that there is a level of, detail or like standard operating procedures that X has to fi follow, you know, by Y and Z, If you can get curious and ask themselves, you know, how are you gonna go about this? And just listen. And then if you need to course correct in some of it going, well, okay, but have you thought about this or you thought about that? And understand the risks. And then have them [00:34:00] say, okay, when are you gonna update me next? When it’s their ideas, they are more apt to, A, do them and B, own them. And so you let go of the micromanagement of it and creating an overdependent team, then you’ve empowered them. Then they have autonomy. It doesn’t mean you have let go and abandoned them, though you’re still holding them accountable and you’re there for support. 

At shift from a dependable team to an independent team or like a network, right? Where, where there’s, you’re as a manager, not the bottleneck. That makes such a big difference in how someone, what someone does day in and day out, how often, how much they enjoy their role, the stress level that they have. Um.

And just the impact and the results that the team can create. But it is, it, it requires a [00:35:00] lot of shifting in thinking and letting go of some of that control and redefining what your role actually is as a manager. That it’s not having all the answers, it’s not directing the people, you know, in that granularity or in that level of detail to be the one who dictates where to go.

And it sounds for many people like, no, no, I, I understand that. I’m not that kind of leader. But then when we look at. Including myself too. When we actually look at the behavior and the conversations happening day in and day out, suddenly we catch ourself thinking like, whoa. That was exactly one where I created now on me, where I came in thinking I’m being helpful, but I’m actually the one directing.

are you being helpful or 

Yeah.

And, um. We have different like, oh, I need to save them. I, I don’t want ’em to get off course, or I wanna help them along. And that shift from being the expert and the individual [00:36:00] contributor into people management. Your main goal now is to get work done through others. In today’s work environment, you often have your own accountabilities to almost like an individual contributor. So there’s rarely just a people manager these days, but your main scope is to get things done through others. That means you have to trust your team. do their work, and you have to hold them accountable to the quality level that you’re being held accountable for in order for that work to actually hit the objectives of the organization. And now it gets even more complicated when you become a manager of managers. You’re starting to get even more removed. So now you’re doing work through people who are supposed to do work through others. And that letting go, and then how do you still know things are on track? The key here that I find with most of the organizations that I work with is that validation process for understanding [00:37:00] expectations and creating the. Independent yet aligned and collaborative team versus the Overdependent team that’s waiting for every instruction going forward. 

Yep. Well said. Popping up. Andrea, is there anything that you feel we haven’t talked about that’s important to the topic?

I am often asked, well, you know, organization that I I I’m in very micromanaging is the style, or I’m expected to do that. It all starts with you and you can only influence and control what you do. it’s not about you managing up or managing to your peers, but how are you managing your people how are you showing up with others?

You can practice on your peers, you can, you know, [00:38:00] practice with others, but you show up and what people remember about you. Is always in your control. You’re at choice, you have agency. And so when you get real with yourself of any fears that you have, and when we’re being nice, we’re fearful of not being liked when we’re not telling the hard thing, we’re fearful of hurting somebody’s opinion, um, of themselves and of us. And if we can address those fears and mitigate them. We can actually step into the full leadership that we can be, and it was what people will be known for, what you will be known for in the end. 

Hold on. Thanks. Thanks for bringing that to the point, um, and emphasizing that aspect. Andrea, thanks so much for being on, for having this conversation. I think it’s one where, uh, most of us are dealing with this nice [00:39:00] kindness, the, the directness, the different expectations that people have on us, or how even we receive feedback.

We might have a, it’s not how, uh, our manager might be, um, providing communication, such communication to us. But taking a step back and looking at how do we flex this muscle? What are the different mindset changes that create a better dynamic that allows us to create those future states that we’re aiming for and not just optimize for the current, you know, health or wellbeing of the dynamics as of today or within a, a particular conversation.

Such an important topic. So I appreciate you bringing your expertise to The Manager Track podcast. It’s great having you on. Thank you, Andrea.

you. I look forward to, um, hearing some feedback on the episode and people can find me, um, on LinkedIn or at a three Culture Lab, and I’m happy to share more. 

Absolutely, and we will link [00:40:00] to all of those, uh, pages. And, uh, we will link to Andrea’s page Web and we’ll link to Andrea’s website and her social media details as well in the show notes. Thanks so much.

Okay.