[00:00:00] Welcome to The Manager Track podcast. Today I have a real treat for you. I’m joined by Jason Shagger. Jason is the USA Today bestselling author of Beyond High Performance and the Founder and CEO of Novus Global, which is an executive coaching firm. His team of over 50 coaches works with Fortune 500 executives, founders, Olympians, and public sector leaders. Jason is known as a leadership futurist, someone pushing leaders to keep reinventing themselves.
His work appears in Forbes Fast Company and The New York Times Plus. If that wasn’t enough. He’s also the executive producer of Sovereign, which is one of the best reviewed films of 2025. and let’s not forget, he’s the host of the Beyond High Performance Podcast.
Links to all of this in the show notes. Now, what I really like about Jason is that he walks the talk. He doesn’t just help leaders with their reinvention, he does it himself and with his [00:01:00] team as well. A bit more context on Jason’s work. Before we dive into the conversation with him.
Jason challenges the belief that high performance is the finish line. His work assumes that leaders are willing to step beyond performance into what he calls. Meta performance, and this is where things often get uncomfortable, right? Because what we see with a lot of senior leaders, executives, founders, is that they’re attached to output, to optics, and maybe in the appearance of showing up rather than doing the harder work.
Of going deeper. So today in our conversation, we’re going to explore what the gap actually means in practice and what it reveals about how leaders grow and why the differentiator in the next era of leadership will not be speed or volume, but the willingness to go invert and to keep reinventing. I am thrilled to have cha on the podcast.
I’ve been following [00:02:00] his work for a while. I read his book, it’s full of highlights and notes on different pages, and so with that, a very warm welcome to Cha.
Here are the two questions. This podcast answers. One, how do you successfully transition into your first official leadership role? And two, how do you keep climbing that leadership ladder and continuously get promoted,
although the competition and the expectations get bigger. This show with The Manager Track podcast will provide the answers. I’m your host, Ramona Shaw.
I’m on a mission to create workplaces where work is seen as a source of contribution, connection and personal fulfillment. And this transition starts with developing a new generation of leaders who know how to lead. So everyone wins and gross. In the show, you’ll learn how to think, communicate and act as a confident and competent leader.
You know, you can be.
Jason, thanks so much for being on The Manage Track podcast. Thank you, Ramona. It’s great to be here. As I said in introduction, I’m really excited to have this [00:03:00] conversation. I think you do fabulous work.
And so having this one-on-one time with you is, you know, makes me really think about leadership and taking a bit of a step outside of the day-to-day activities as a leadership and executive coach to really think about leadership in a new or maybe different way. And I hope that our audience today, anyone listening, will have a similar experience for them to take a moment.
Away from all the responsibilities and to do the common leadership, but to reflect on who they are as a leader. And where do they wanna go? Yeah. And so maybe to start, as we talk about some of these shifts and reflections, can you share a bit more about what are the shifts that you notice when leaders that you work with go through a transformation?
And you, we talk later about this word meta performance, but transform in the way that they show up and perform as leaders. What does that look like? You? Well, I think and, and I’ll, I’ll give a swing at this and you can tell me if I answered it or [00:04:00] not, but. At the very least, they had a vision for what was worth the pain of transformation.
We talk about that a lot at the firm is exploring meta performance is coming up with a vision that’s worth all that, because transforming can be uncomfortable. And so we’re in incentive-based creatures. And so you need to create incentives for why you’re going to change habits, why you’re gonna change patterns, why you’re going to.
Grabbing onto new things even is, is, is easy. Letting go of old things is hard. And so like what’s worth the letting go of old beliefs? What’s worth letting go of the things that you thought were true? What’s worth letting go of judgments that you have about people who are more successful than you that probably obscure some learning that you can learn from them and then implement in your own life.
And so that fir the first thing that we really want to help people with. And the first thing that we find that the leaders who actually transform. Is it get really crystal clear on some kind of picture of the future that just lights them up that that [00:05:00] is en enthralling to them that would be meaningful both to them and to other stakeholders in their lives like their, their spouses or their families or the companies obviously, that they lead.
And once you get that anchored into place, there’s other things obviously, but that’s probably one of the bigger, bigger ones. So you said two interesting things. I mean more than that, but two that I wanna touch on. Yeah. One is that it expanded outside of work. So when you say vision, you talk about the impact on family life health in all different ways.
So to crystallize that vision holistically. Yes, yes. Yeah. The yeah. You know, so we, we make a distinction between life coaching and executive coaching, and both are meaningful and valuable. We definitely. Access the rest of a person’s life through work. So some people start with life first and then have, have a, have a positive impact on work.
Coaches at Novus Global tend to start first with work and then say, okay, now if we’re gonna imagine having some new work, ambition accomplished, [00:06:00] but it’s accomplished in a way to where maybe your boss or managers or your, your, your husband or your wife or your kids say, we’re so glad that you’re working with this coach.
And, and that really is a bullseye for us, is we wanna. A person to, to shift so meaningfully and honorably that everyone in their life says We’re grateful that you’re working with a coach versus what can happen oftentimes, which is where you can hire what I call and I mean this mostly good spiritedly like an eat, pray, love coach who then just helps you.
Hit the eject button and all the key commitments of your life, and everyone is like, Hey, you seem more quote free, but everyone around you is more miserable. And mm, we find we won that. And that’s, that’s, I guess, that’s an okay kind of coaching if you’re the one paying for it and, and you’re outside of a company, but if a company’s paying for your coaching that’s a, a not only a waste of money, but a net negative.
And we, we not only stay away from that kind of coaching, but we will warn people about that kind of coaching. Mm, very, very true. [00:07:00] The second thing that I wanna quickly touch on that you just said is that it’s easier to take in new commitments or new habits than it is to let go of old habits and you know the underlying beliefs of that.
What are some examples of things that you find it may be to your own surprise? Humans have a hard time with letting go. Yes. Yeah. Well, if, so, if you’re listening into this and you’re in, like, say, like middle management, it’s whatever you judge about your manager or your boss. And so oftentimes folks in middle management are like, oh, you know, so and so is so gruff, or they’re not compassionate, or they are, I guess like selfish or they are only concerned, like, they don’t listen, they don’t slow down.
They’re. They’re bossy or there’s, and I’m trying to use polite words, you know, like mm-hmm. And so it’s, so you wanna start with that. In fact, if you’re listening to this, you can [00:08:00] just write down a list of all the judgments that you have about the people you work with, or the people who are quote, more successful than you in the organization.
You might even judge them for like, oh, they’re opportunistic, or they’re so political, or they’re they brag about themselves all the time. That one comes up a lot. And all of those represent. Potential problems, like, yeah, yeah, maybe those are like not great things, maybe. But almost always that’s like the, the the, the husk and there’s a kernel inside of something that they do that actually is valuable and meaningful.
And even we could use the word like good and you’re never gonna discover the kernel ’cause you’re so busy judging the husk. And so what you could do is then work with a coach like you or somebody else and say, okay, look, so you judge this person for. Always bragging about themselves, but like, what is the positive thing?
Oh, they’re advocating for themselves. You know, they are, they’re constantly teaching other people how to see them. They’re taking responsibility [00:09:00] for their internal brand and the company, and, and we tend to, to judge people for being braggadocious, for saying, yeah, I had this amazing deal, or I closed this thing, or I had this amazing experience, or whatever.
Meanwhile, they’re teaching the people around them that they’re competent, trustworthy, successful. And we’re busy judging them for, for bragging. And oftentimes avoiding taking responsibility for how we’re training our employers or those who we work with on how to see us. And oftentimes they see us as the person who’s maybe a good worker, maybe complains a little bit average, mediocre or whatever.
And that’s one of the many reasons why oftentimes other people are more successful than us. So I’m hearing on one hand, look at all the things where you are complaining. Look at all those areas to see like what can you see that’s actually good in that? Yeah. And I would assume it’s also things that we may find annoying in other people or around us in circumstances, but actually make us stronger.
But we don’t see it as that. [00:10:00] Yeah. Yeah, they are. Yeah. Like another typical example is like in, so like, this is similar to the one I just gave, but I know a lot of photographers who judge other photographers because they’re so salesy, right? Mm-hmm. They’re, they’re, and it’s like and, and they have a judgment of sales.
So to be salesy is to lie, to be salesy, is to take, to be salesy, is to be slimy or sleazy or kind of out for yourself or whatever. And those things can be true. But also you know, when you meet people who are wildly successful, I’ve never met a person who’s wildly successful, who isn’t good at sales.
Mm-hmm. And I’ve never met a person who’s not wildly successful, who doesn’t come from a place of deep service. And so mm-hmm. And you know this, and you’ve probably had people on the show talking about how sales is service and mm-hmm. We will never learn how to serve in a way that closes deals, which is also called sales.
If we’re busy judging people for being slimy or braggadocious or [00:11:00] trying to take or whatever, like the, the judgment protects us. And I mean that in a negative way. The judgment inoculates us from having to learn a new skill. Mm-hmm. And I, I, I apply this in my own life, Romana, like I, I think about who are the people that I’m jealous of, who are the leaders or thought leaders or writers or speakers or whatever that I’m jealous of and what is my jealousy?
Keeping me from having to learn in order for me to have the kind of success that I actually admire in them. with that, let’s talk about the different levels of performance. So you state that there’s. Under performance, performance and high performance. We’re all very familiar with that. But then you make the claim, and of course, it’s, you know, on the front page, on the cover of your, of your book, it’s meta performance.
Yeah. What does the shift look like from high performance into meta performance and what, what, what, how do we know that someone is operating in the meta performance space? Yeah, so, so the, the reality is your life is shaped by the, the questions that you ask and the questions you don’t. And so, you know, inquiry-based coaching, I’m [00:12:00] sure you use a lot of questions when you work with your clients.
And que and, and questions are more powerful oftentimes than, than answers are. And so we discovered that if you can help individuals and or groups of individuals upgrade the kinds of questions that they ask, it will upgrade their performance. And you can correlate different types of performance with certain kinds of questions.
So, as an example, like low performance is asking the question, what’s the least amount of work I can do and not get fired? And a lot of people live their whole lives asking that question. And performance is asking the question, how can I do a good job? And probably most people who are in like middle management in an organization, they’re probably asking that question.
I wanna do a good job. You know, like, I wanna, I wanna win here. I want to, to be a net positive to the organization. I think most people wake up asking that very good question. But then high performers are asking a different kind of question. They’re asking how can I be the best? And oftentimes we judge them for that.
You know, we, you know, so and so is always just trying to win or, or whatever. And, and I’m actually working [00:13:00] on a new book around that, which I’m excited about. And there’s a whole other level that a lot of people don’t know about. And it doesn’t matter where you are in the organization, whether you’re the founder, the CEO, or an investor, or whether you are.
A brand new hire in an organization that you can ask yourself a new kind of question and it will dramatically increase the probability of you being successful in that organization. And, and so that question isn’t, of course, it’s not, how can I do as least as possible? It’s not how, how do I do a good job?
It’s not even, how can I be the best? It’s asking the question, what am I capable? We call that meta performance. And meta is Latin for or Greek, for going beyond or above, like beyond high performance. Above high performance. And so it’s asking the question, how do I reinvent what high performance means for me?
And you know, ’cause being the best, if you’re the best salesman in the company, that’s like an achievable thing. And every organization that has a sales team, one of them is going to be the best. But meta performance [00:14:00] is endless. Like that’s something that you can bench press for the rest of your life. And that’s why it makes, it makes it a really powerful conversation.
And frankly, it’s the only question that honors the amount of potential that is inside of you. And we find that most organizations unintentionally create cultures that don’t honor the genuine potential that’s buried inside of every human being. And so our firm has been hunting for what are the architectures, the philosophies, the, the frameworks, the questions.
That if a person wrestles with it well gives dignity to their, their, the, the drastic potential that’s inside of them, and, and allow what questions allow them to excavate that potential in a way that not only enhances their lives, but enhances the company’s life or whatever company is fortunate enough to have them be a part of their world.
Mm-hmm. That’s interesting. I was once in a situation where I had to kind of create my own job inside an organization. So there [00:15:00] was a structure with all these job descriptions where no one asked what I’d be capable of. Right. But how could I fulfill a particular role? The best I can was the question. And and then I was prompted to think about what role I would create.
Hmm. And that was a really interesting experience ’cause I had to really go deep into where is my unique value at. Mm-hmm. And. Not just what I wanna do and what I like, but how is it then leading to a net benefit for everyone around me? As you said earlier. Yes, yes, yes. And, and I noticed how much came up.
It was a really, like that brainstorm was so exciting to do and really then also changed the way that I showed up in my current role too. ’cause I suddenly started to see and connect the dots of what actually would be possible if I didn’t have work within this boundary that I created in my mind all by myself.
Yeah. ’cause that’s, that’s very good, Ramona. Like most people think, but most people think in terms the job descriptions versus potential [00:16:00] descriptions. Mm-hmm. And what a cool environment where you’re whoever you were working with was like, Hey, you’re so valuable here. We don’t really, you know, we could, we could pigeonhole you into a job description, but what we, we’d like to also do is invite you to dream a little bit about what your maximum contribution is to this company.
And then put something together and then let’s talk. And that’s a fantastic exercise. I don’t know if that’s in your book or if that’s in you’ve talked about that before, but that’s a really, Fanta whoever’s listening to this take Ramona’s advice and ask that question. Like if you, what do you think?
In fact, we with, with the, so I own two companies and there’s three presidents that run the two companies. And just a few weeks ago we sat down and we went around and said, Hey, if I had more time. How would I like to contribute? Like what are the things that are unique about me that I think that I bring to this company that I could uniquely contribute in ways that I’m not contributing now?
’cause I like, quote, don’t have time. And it was just, it doesn’t mean we’re gonna change anything necessarily. It doesn’t mean that because of that then we, you know, altered anyone’s job description. It was just a great [00:17:00] conversation to have so that I can learn how they see themselves, how they see their contribution, and.
How they see each other’s contribution and we give each other feedback and it’s, it’s a great lens. It’s a much more resourceful lens than just job description performance. Or asking myself the question, what am I capable of? And I put myself now sort of in, in the minds of the people that I work with in, in coaching engagements and mm-hmm.
You know, understand their, their patterns, including myself here too. I can see two ways that this goes. There might be someone, or on the spectrum where someone is. Very bold and it’s like, I am capable of all of these things and let’s get to work. And they get excited. And maybe as a someone on the outside listening, it’s like, are you sure you’re capable of that?
Yes. Like, why don’t you like, think, you know, in steps and see how that goes. But there might be also the people who dream big, but then it comes attached with what, what it brings up is a lot of insecurity. [00:18:00] Yeah. Of this is what I, what I would like to do, but thinking about me actually doing this no way.
That is way too scary. I don’t think I’m ready. How do you handle that as a coach in your work and what have you found useful? Yeah, so I hear two things there and, and the, the first is the kind of. If someone on your team came to you with what they think they’re capable of and is like, I don’t know if I agree.
Like I don’t, I don’t, I think that you’re not capable of that. I think that’s a legitimate thing, which is why oftentimes you wanna, that’s what’s, that’s what’s so great about coaching. Or if it’s not gonna be a professional coach. It could be a therapist or like a friend where you can, you gotta find somebody who is safe to say.
This is what I think I’m capable of. And nine times outta 10 is probably not gonna be a manager or boss or anybody. Not at first. Mm-hmm. You wanna just get it out loud to somebody. I was just recently, I was, I was having a conversation with one of the in my opinion, one of the greatest leaders in the world at their [00:19:00] particular domain.
And I, I said to them, I said, Hey, you, you know, the vision is, a meta performing vision when if you told it to people who you know, they would say, well, who in the hell do you think you are? Mm. Like, that’s it. And, and again, you don’t have to tell anybody anything. Like this isn’t about, you know, blasting on social media or whatever.
This is about you just giving your space to window shop for. A unbelievable future. And then, and then see what happens. So you want to, you want to create a safe space for, to dream absurdly, to think of things that would be irresponsible unless you found a way to make it responsible. And I think that addresses, the first thing is, is that doesn’t, it’s, it’s not your employer’s job to help you accomplish your meta performing vision.
Right? That’s the, the, the, the company doesn’t bend a knee to. Your meta performing vision, but it is a great conversation for you to have at least at, at first privately before you begin taking action towards [00:20:00] it. And then with the second part I think you know, you’re doing it right when the, the vision scares you when it intimidates you.
And I, I think that’s. One of the indicators that something might be worthy of you. And so again, with coaching or fr healthy friendships I, you know, there are, years ago I heard this term, like surrogate believers, people who believe in you on your behalf and tell you, can believe for yourself, right?
Mm-hmm. And I, I think that’s, frankly, that’s one of the things I love most about coaching is I get to be, I get to believe in people as. They learn how to believe in themselves, and I get to believe in them more than anyone ever has. And they’re like, Hey, I don’t know if I see myself the same way you see me.
And I was like, that’s okay. You will like, just give it time. We’ll get into the trenches, we’ll do the work. We’re gonna lift the weights and watch as you become [00:21:00] the person that I know you can be. And there’s a, there’s a, there’s a joy and a kind of a romance and adventure. To that kind of conversation.
And I, I think that’s what makes Medformin coaching so much fun. There was a study once, not a study, there was a forum once with questions around management and leadership. I forget which platform, but on one of those open platforms. The question was who was your favorite boss or manager and why? And of course I noticed it.
I. Open it up and was like, I’m curious to hear what people say. And there were, yeah, hundreds of comments underneath. And so I started skimming through and there was one clear theme, and that was that people said, my boss believed in me more than I believed in myself. Oh, wow. Yeah. And. I might, I have experienced this before and I can attest how powerful it is, but then reading it and seeing that this is the common thing, this is what [00:22:00] people say, this is why this boss was the best that I have ever had, not because of how.
They showed up on Monday morning or what they said or how they wrote their emails. Although all great, right? How they get feedback. Yeah. But this underlying thought that this other, this underlying pattern, not only did they believe in them more, but they also were able to convey this and communicated this to the employee that inspired them to take action, say without otherwise not half.
Yeah. That is huge. Yeah. I remember when I was 25 years old, I was working at this organization. It was one of the, again, one of the, I’ve been very fortunate, it was one of the most successful organizations of its kind in the world and, you know, bright eye, bushy tailed, figuring stuff out doing some things right, doing a lot of things wrong, you know, trying not to.
To cause too much damage as a, as a young leader. And I remember my boss, who I had an immense respect for, you know internationally known, written, sold millions of copies of books, [00:23:00] written dozens of bestsellers. And he came up to me as a 25-year-old and he said, Hey, you know, Jason, if you would, if you would lead, like, if you would step into who you really are, who I know you to be, he goes, I would follow you and mm-hmm.
Man, like that was, that was a defining moment for me. And, and, and it was so disruptive that it took me a while to even like, metabolize that, that someone who I looked up to so much and respected so much would be willing to to follow me. No, he, he meant that. Not like he’d make him, not, not like, he didn’t mean like, now you’re the boss, Jason, and I’m gonna work for you.
That’s, that’s, that’s not what he mm-hmm. You know, but it was like a, Hey, we’re a team here and there’s mutual submission that’s happening. And sometimes, you know, she’s in charge and sometimes I’m in charge and sometimes he’s in charge depending on what we’re doing here in the organization. And [00:24:00] so he was saying, you know, like, if you stepped up, we would follow your lead.
Mm-hmm. But it was a, it was a pretty powerful moment for me. Mm. Beautiful example. So speaking of the, the way that we ask questions and then the way that we think about ourselves at work, one of the things that stood out to me from you too, as a, as a really tangible or or applicable framework, is the four different archetypes in the workplace.
Oh, yeah, yeah. And for for anyone listening to really think through, and I’d love if you can explain the four different archetypes and then. For us to think about where do we, what, what do we relate with and when does this show up? Because personally, when I went through that exercise, I noticed that there are areas in my life where I show up as one archetype, and then in other areas where I show up as a different archetype.
Yeah. And then asking myself the question, what if I was a lot more consistent in, in the archetype that I choose? And how would that change the way I show [00:25:00] up day in and day? Yeah, I, I’m, I’m thrilled that you liked that part of the book. That was that was something that we Janet Breitenbach, who’s another coach in our firm, her and I put this talk together for this huge company in the Midwest, and that was the content that we use.
And then we ended up putting it into the book. And consistently, people are like, that section is one of our favorite sections. We get asked to keynote, speak our coaches. We’ve got about 10 who go keynote speakers who go out and speak on behalf of our company. And, and that’s the one that they get asked to speak about the, the most, and it wasn’t.
Necessarily gonna be in the book originally. And so it’s always fun to by the way, my favorite parts of the book no one ever talks about or asks us to speak about. So it’s one of those pains of writing a book is the parts that you kinda just put in there. People are like, oh, we love that. And the parts that you really put your heart and soul into, they’re like, nah.
But anyhow, so one of the things that, that in coaching, of course in, in our community of coaches at the firm. And the institute that we’re obsessed over is relationships and, and of [00:26:00] course we’re obsessed over relationships and work. And most people, when they think about relationships and work, they’re thinking about relationships at work.
You know, they’re thinking about their boss, their manager, their colleagues, their employees, the employees. What people usually don’t think about is their relationship to work. And so you have relationships at work and you have relationships. To work and people are really dialed in to who they like and don’t like at the water cooler and the cubicle or on Zoom or whatever.
But oftentimes they’re completely blind. To the kind of relationships they have to work. And the reality is, is there’s three primary relationships to work. And we talk about this in the book. There’s the prisoner. You have like a kind of a prisoner relationship, like the golden handcuffs, and that that could be the person who is you know, working, you know, three jobs trying to make ends meet.
They work because they have to. And it could also be the person who is, you know, making seven or eight figures, but they’re trying to keep up with the Joneses and they feel like they have, they work because they have to. Then there’s the the mercenary. So you have the, the prisoner, you have the mercenary, and the, the mercenary works because they want [00:27:00] to.
And you know, it’s not, it is a saying, it’s not personal, it’s business. You know, if somebody offers me a better salary at another company, I’m gone. So there’s no real fidelity to the organization or anything. It’s just kind of fidelity to, to the benies, to the money. And then there’s the missionary mindset.
It’s like, I work because. I’m called to, and these are oftentimes, like Silicon Valley founders, you know, they’re trying to, to change the world with their app that, you know, has a new way of flushing toilets or whatever. And, and they’re like, they, they give all their time and they give all their energy to it and they’re committed and it’s all in.
And, and that has downsides too because oftentimes you give, give, give, give all your life to this job. And, and oftentimes jobs are horrible lovers. You know, they, you give everything to them, but they don’t necessarily give a lot back all the time. So the mercenary missionary and and prisoner mindset are the ones that are most common we find at work.
But then in our work, we’ve discovered that there is a fourth mindset and, and it’s called the athlete’s mindset. And so the athlete doesn’t work because they have to, they don’t work because they want to, they don’t work necessarily because they’re called to. They work because work is [00:28:00] one of the primary ways that they get to grow.
And, you know, our firm, it’s actually crazy. This is a wonderful season for our firm. Like we andrew Ladd, who’s the, he’s a former Stanley Cup hockey player. He’s the head of our sport division, which is a blast. And the former captain of the Rangers just joined our firm as a coach. We actually have a former NBA player who just joined our firm and former GM for professional sports team.
Like all these people are coming to be a part of our community and it’s like, it blows my mind because I don’t know anything about sports and so, but getting to know them. It’s been a blast because they, they pull the curtain back of what life is really like for an NBA player, what life is really like for an NHL player.
And what they said shocked me was like, Hey, Jason you can be a professional athlete and not have like a meta performing mindset at all. And he said and Andrew, the head of our sport division, he’s like, Jason, there’s two types of athletes who get into the NHL one type. When they make it into the NHL, they act like they’ve arrived.
The other type, when [00:29:00] they get into the NHL, they act like they’ve only just begun. And the difference between those two players is massive in terms of what their careers are gonna look like, how much money they’re gonna make what they’re gonna do with their money is, is, is totally different. And the other thing that’s interesting about an athlete’s mindset is you know, when you watch, you know, LeBron play on the court or whatever.
You. A a a spectator only sees about 1% of what an athlete does. Like we think, we think that LeBron gets paid to play. He doesn’t. He gets paid to practice most of his life. Overwhelmingly boringly, you know obsessively. What goes into his life is watching film, getting on the court, doing drills, practicing scrimmaging.
I mean, it’s crazy and no one sees any of it unless you’ve got like an entourage and a a film crew or whatever. No one sees any of it, and that kind of thing is exciting to us. Like if you could treat. Work the way a professional athlete treats their work [00:30:00] and say like, man, when I go into the office, it doesn’t matter what my job is.
It doesn’t matter what my title is, it doesn’t matter what, where I fit in the echelon of the company, I’m going to take this job as seriously as a professional athlete because that’s the way that I’m gonna grow my skills. That’s the way I’m gonna grow my abilities. That’s way I’m gonna grow my reputation.
And in doing so, you bring of course, more value to the organization, but that person is going to. Have a dramatically different career arc than the person who just shows up to do a good job. And, and so those are the, the four different types of, of relating to work and why we think that relating to work like an athlete is the best.
Mm. And this is where like was, I was saying if you think about it holistically in our lives, be this in a relationship too, right? If you’re in a partnership, why am I in this partnership? It’s like one of the biggest ways that we grow and become more self-aware and have to go through the discomfort. And same with work.
And now I’m bringing it back to what we started with, which is actually the vision. Because when you have a clear vision of where you wanna go, and you feel that with the question of what are you [00:31:00] capable of? Then the work that you actually do becomes the means to that end. And it’s a lot more motivating to get up every morning to work towards that.
It is more motivating. And one of the chapters that we put in the book is on energy. And you, you, you just nailed it. Like when you, when those stars align, it unlocks energy that you didn’t know you had. And so if you’re, again, if you’re listening or watching this, you have more energy than you realize. You have access to more resources than you realize.
And when you can get a vision, when you can get the right mindset, when you can ask the right questions it will begin unlocking energy for you. And you’ll start doing things that the old version of you would be exhausted by, but you’ll be invigorated by it because it’s, you’re coming from a new place and it’s, that’s, it’s very exciting.
Mm. Okay. Now you you included a cliffhanger earlier. I did. Yes. You said the things that you wish people would pay more attention to, are not paying attention to. So I have to ask, [00:32:00] what are your maybe one or two favorite parts of the book? Oh. Oh, I appreciate that. There’s two parts. One part that, that divides the book in from the first and second is this introduction to what we call multid iCal thinking.
And so we make a distinction. There’s iCal thinking, which is this black or white right or wrong thinking, which is what most political discourse is about. You know, like, I’m right, you’re wrong. If you disagree with me, you’re evil and you should be destroyed and you’re a threat to democracy or whatever.
Then there’s paradoxical thinking and paradoxical thinking is hard. It’s where you, you know, I think it, I can’t remember if it’s Einstein or Edison, one of the great inventors of the 20th century said that the evidence of a world-class mind is that you can, can, you can hold two contradicting thoughts in your head at the same time.
And that’s fantastic. If you could, if, if only we could aspire towards seeing what value both the Democrats and the Republicans are protecting the legitimate value that both the protecting, if either party had full control, then that would not be [00:33:00] good. And so that’s paradoxical thinking. And then there’s actually a level above that, which is called multiaxial thinking, and that’s where you can.
Think in terms of ecosystems of paradox or like attentions to manage. And if you’re a senior level leader or if you’re a CEO, you know Exactly. You may, you may not use these words, but you know exactly what I’m talking about because every decision you make is a trade off for something else, and you’re just existing in a world of imperfect decisions.
And so, you know, in fact there’s a, there’s a book called leadership Pain. And it’s a, it’s a parochial book, so it’s written from a religious perspective, but essentially it says that your capacity to lead is based on your capacity to tolerate other people not liking you. And he said in the book, he says, about any given time, 10% of the people who follow you will not like you.
So if you can’t handle one person liking you, you can only lead 10. And if you can handle millions of people not liking you, you can run for public office. Right? So, so, and I find that to be, to be true because in any manager or leader who leads, lots of people knows [00:34:00] this is true. Any decision you make, somebody’s not gonna like, you know, if you, we, we, at our firm, we go on two retreats every year where we get everyone from the firm together and in, in the institute and, and it’s a blast.
And we love it. We love being together ’cause everyone works remote. And I promise you, no matter where we pick, no matter what city we pick, we always move around. This past year was in right outside of Phoenix, but we’ve been in New Orleans, we’ve been to Tahoe, we’ve been to Cancun. And no matter what city you pick, at least 10% of the people are gonna be like, man, that’s too far, that’s too expensive.
Or, why are we doing that? Or blah, blah, blah. And, and so what, what’s necessary for organizations to remain agile and to not waste their time complaining about things versus thinking about things in terms of incentives. Is multi thinking where it’s like, Hey, in order to make a decision about where we’re gonna have the retreat, we’re gonna, we’re gonna manage the tension of like seven different variables, right?
It’s gonna be cost, location, beauty the available pricing, the [00:35:00] available fun opportunities or recreational opportunities at, around and, and, and like several more. And we’re gonna make an imperfect decision based on the management of those tensions and a person’s capacity to do that. And to understand that they’re, the people that they’re working with are also doing that.
Allows people to make smarter decisions and better decisions faster. And so we, we set that up as a part two of the book. And then we talk about six values, growth, ownership, love, integrity, vision and energy, and how managing the contradictory tensions of those six values is what brings out the best in us and what allows us to create communities that are able to do extraordinary things.
But it’s all rooted in multid thinking, and I have not yet found a way of, making people interested in that. I’m, I’m horrible at marketing. Well, hey, maybe this was a, this was sort of a, an anchor yeah. Or a seed here for people to, to really think about this. It goes back to me in terms of, or to that question of how do we make better decisions?
And this, this statement, like, good leaders decide [00:36:00] about deciding and Yeah. Oh, that’s good. Yeah. And, and what goes into decision making process. And it is this, this understanding that there’s the, the more responsibility that you hold, not only will you upset some people with your decisions, but also the more ambiguous the whole situation is.
Nothing is clear cut and an easy decision anymore. A lot of it’s gonna be 40 60 or 49 51, and you won’t know. And a lot of it is also luck and circumstances that you can’t control. But where you can control is the way that you think about. The decisions, your ability to collect Yes. The right amount of input and then use the right filters to come to come to a decision.
Yeah, that’s right. But most people don’t even realize that they have filters. Yeah. Right. And so part of, part of, I think, part of transformative leadership is teaching people at scale in organizations. You have multiple filters when you, when there’s a difference between holding a filter and the filter holding you.[00:37:00]
So like right now, if you don’t realize that you have a filter, that means that you’re not holding it, it’s holding you and you are imprisoned by it. And so we’re gonna help you get some agency around it and realize that that’s whatever you think is happening at work is being translated by a filter.
And there’s 17 other filters that you could pick from. And helping people learn which filters we tend to think are the most valuable. And then helping people filter, switch in terms of as, as like leading themselves and leading others. And you know, I think it was Max Dupree, who, he’s got a great quote.
He said leadership is the art of defining reality. And I find that to be true. It’s like the leader’s job is to say, here’s what we’re gonna value around here. Here’s the filters that we’re going to use. Here’s the filters we are not going to use. And we believe that if we embrace these filters, that it’ll increase the probability of shared success and then off we go.
And in general, I find most leaders do not make time for that conversation, but when they do, it’s like, it’s, it’s like discovering that they’ve been leading with one hand tied behind their back. And if you can, if you can clip that rope [00:38:00] and get that other hand out there then all of a sudden things get, it creates new problems, but it makes the old problems a lot easier to manage.
Mm, well I love that analogy. Jason. Is there something we haven’t talked about yet that you think could be really useful to share? I mean selfishly I wanted you to ask me about the movie. Yes. Let’s talk about it. Talk. Tell us about it. So this was I was saying earlier that it’s on my watch list. I haven’t actually watched it, but I did watch the trailer.
So I at least know what it’s about. But tell us about it. Yeah. Well, and the, the here’s why this matters is because if you, if you’re watching this and listening to this, you probably have like dreams that for a future and dreams, maybe they’re related to your work, maybe they’re not related to your work.
Maybe it would require a career change. Maybe it wouldn’t. But most people do not give honor to their dreams. And I don’t even mean achieving them or accomplishing them. I mean, they don’t even like take a swing. They don’t even inch their way towards the water. They don’t forget [00:39:00] diving in. They don’t even dip a toe.
And and so, and, and our firm, first of all, we have a saying like they’ll never hire a coach who doesn’t have a coach. And and so everyone in the co in our, in our firm gets coached. I get coached. Everyone at the institute gets coached, even our operations teams. My assistant gets coached. Everyone gets coached, and part of that is also about us practicing what we preach, you know?
And so a lot of times and if, if you’re watching this and you’re an executive coach or a leadership coach a lot of times we give our lives to helping other people’s dreams come true. And sometimes it’s at the expense of our own. And so at the firm, we get really excited when we help each other and encourage each other to step into our.
Vocational or bivocational dreams because it makes us better coaches, you know? So, like, as a small example, I love, I love music. I love playing the piano. I actually have, even though I, you know, I speak in front of large, large audiences and things like that, I, I have performance anxiety, especially around the [00:40:00] piano, like playing the piano in front of people’s terrifying.
And so, several times I live in New York City and there’s the Oculus downtown right next to the, the world trade tower. And they have a piano, a public piano. And so you can go and you can play. You, you stand in line, there’s people there and they’re very good. And it’s like in a mall, I guess, for people to envision what this is like.
And I’ll go and I’ll play the piano. Why am I gonna be a professional piano player someday? No. But I, I just don’t like being scared of things. And so I’m gonna go and I’m gonna, you know, take an anxiety pill or whatever, and I’m gonna play the piano and I’m gonna practice that. And I believe that.
Doing that one makes me a better person, helps me learn how to manage anxiety better. But two, when I go and I talk to, right now I’m coaching you know, a two time Stanley Cup winning athlete. I’m coaching the CEO of an NBA team like that gives me authority to say, Hey, look like you don’t get to not do the thing that you’re scared of because I’m doing the thing that I’m scared of.
Now on a much bigger level, [00:41:00] I’ve loved film my whole life. I lived in LA for 20 years. We have clients that are at Netflix. We work with some of the most famous entertainers on earth. And I just, I just love it and I don’t think that other people should love it as much as I do. That’s the thing that makes me unique, like my wife, when my wife and I got married and she didn’t even have a tv, no problem.
I, I, but I love storytelling. I love the narrative arts. And the opportunity came up from my buddy Nick er, who I’ve known for years. We actually met a church in Los Angeles and he gave me a script and he was like, Hey, I think this is, this should be right up your alley. And I ended up investing in the film and got to be a part of that process.
And it, it premiered at Tribeca at Stars Nick Erman and Dennis Quaid and Ja Jacob Trimble. And it’s, it’s right now one of the top 10 highest reviewed films of the year on Rotten Tomatoes. I think Nick’s gonna make an Oscar run. He’s doing a lot of press for it right now. And Nick Erman rather, not Nick Ry.
And I am, I’m so proud of it and it’s so much fun. And of course like, yeah, go check it out. It’s, it’s on Hulu plus, it’s on Disney Plus. You can rent it from Apple TV or Amazon Prime [00:42:00] or whatever, and, and that’s great, but the reason why I like talking about it isn’t necessarily so you’ll go watch the movie, although you should totally go watch the movie.
It’s very good. It’s like this. Modern Shakespearean tragedy of fathers and sons and, and how all kids wanna be loved by their parents and what damage that can cause sometimes when they go sideways. And it’s very, very good. The acting’s incredible. I’m like, I’m so, so proud of the working and Christian Swale, who’s the director, did an amazing job, like just amazing things and.
That’s something that I’ve always longed to do and, and you know, my, you, you, you can, if you, you can find me@jasonjagger.com. You can find me on Instagram, you can find me on LinkedIn. But the, the page that I’m most proud of is my IMDB page and, and my executive producer credit for the movie Sovereign, because, you know, when I was 10 years old, I was trying to make little movies with my action figures and my old camcorder and everything.
And, and then my, and you know, fast forward several years, several decades later, my wife and I are walking the red carpet and there’s Nick Ferman and there’s you know cameras and paparazzi and everything. And it’s like a very [00:43:00] small starting point to a dream come true. And whatever your dream is, whether it’s filmmaking or the arts, or whether it’s finance, or whether it’s having a family, or whether it’s you know.
Becoming a, a star, becoming or starting a company or whatever. Honor those things and, and wherever you are, find ways of, of leaning into that in a way that the people around you will say Thank you. You know? So like, if you’re at a company and, and you have an opportunity, there’s a passion you have, is there a way to, for that passion to make the company win?
And if so, maybe lean into that a little bit. And I just find that too many people live lives of fear and regret and coaching is one of the mechanisms that we use to help people. Die with fulfillment and the feeling of leaving it all on the court. Mm. Congratulations. That’s, thanks. That’s exciting to see and I think it makes a statement that, you are demonstrating truly what’s possible when you start to think about what, what are you capable of? And I think as coaching [00:44:00] too, it opens up this idea of what are alternative ways? If I used to think I’m gonna produce a movie, at some point you might have had envision that you are going to go through a very.
Traditional path of how to produce a movie or how to be part of a movie. And you’re thinking, okay, this is the one way to do it. Yes. Or let’s say this is the one way to start a company or to become an entrepreneur or to travel the world and. Often we need someone else to sort of check us a little bit and challenge us and say like, that is one of a million different ways to go about it.
Why are you thinking this is the only path? And then you think that’s not possible? And so you abort the plan or you know, give up on the idea when there are thousands of different ways that this could go in order for, to achieve the goal. And let’s, let’s brainstorm some ideas. Ramona, that’s so good. And, and oftentimes the most common path, or a parent path is also the most crowded path.
Mm-hmm. Which makes it the hardest path to do because there’s so many other people trying to do the exact same thing. Whereas the non-traditional path, the path [00:45:00] that only you can take because of your unique history, experience, proclivities, network, geography or whatever makes it a very rare path, which makes it not as competitive, which increases the probability of success.
And too many people are trying to win the same way everyone else is and ignoring the unique path that they’ve been given in order for them to have their dreams come true in a way that benefits others. And, and I, I, that’s a really great insight. Like we, we, we, we, we, we don’t give ourselves permission to find new ways to succeed.
Beautiful. What a way to conclude the conversation. Jason, thanks so much for making the time and for being on The Manager Track podcast. We will link to the movie, to your different social media pages and the website below. I also know that you have a quiz that will make available, so we’ll include that in the links as well.
What will people learn when they go through the quiz? Oh, the quiz. Yeah. The quiz is called the Accomplishing the Impossible Quiz, and it’s fantastic. It, it takes, I think only less than 20 minutes. And it, it’s just like an audit of different areas of your life according to the values of the book. [00:46:00] And we’ll, we will help you discover where you’re really thriving, some areas of improvement.
And then what our coaches have done, this is, this is great, I didn’t know about this, but our coaches have said, Hey, if you fill this out, we’ll give you a free session with one of our coaches and they’ll walk through the results with you. And it’s, you know, it’s not a, a hard close or anything, it’s just a way of value add of, of serving people to help them challenge their limiting beliefs and go beyond what they think is possible.

There we go.

So we’ll include that in the show notes too.

Jason, thank you so much. Thanks, Ramona. It’s great being here.
If you enjoy this episode, then check out two other awesome resources to help you become a leader. People love to work with. This includes a free master class on how to successfully lead as a new manager. Check it archova.org/books/masterclass.
The second resource is my best-selling book, the confident and competent new manager, how to quickly rise to success in your first leadership role. Check it out at archova.org/books or head on over to Amazon and grab your copy there.

You can find [00:47:00] all those links. In the show notes down below.