Why Good Managers Still Lose Great People (Ep. 301)

Today I am joined by Betsy Kaufman. Betsy’s, an executive coach and organizational strategist who helps leaders and teams cut through ambiguity, strengthen, alignment, and execute well, especially in the middle of change.

Her work focuses on practical leadership habits that reduce silos, build trust across teams, and create a steady execution rhythm without burning people out. In this conversation, we’ll dig into what new and mid-level managers as well as senior leaders can do when priorities are unclear.

When everything feels urchin and what good communication looks like in order to reach real alignment, plus a few additional topics that you don’t wanna miss. Without further ado, let’s welcome Betsy to the Manage Attract Podcast. I.

Betsy. It’s great to have you on a manager track podcast. 

Hi Ramona. Thanks for having me. I’m super excited to be here to talk with you today.

So you have decades of experience in the C-suite yourself, but also supporting a lot of, teams and C-level executives in their role. And one of the things that. I found really interesting that I wanted to talk to you about is creating alignment throughout the organization and it’s, often feel like, well, this can’t be, rocket science is not so hard.

And yet we often see how the problems we’re dealing with at work stem from misalignment in the first place. Can you tell us a little bit more about the issues that, and the problems that you’re noticing and the root causes that we could prevent? 

So it’s funny, I, you know, I’ve come up for the ranks. Um, you know, individual contributor, they became a manager. And as I was working, um, my way up through the ranks, I would often find that leaders were not aligned in what they were asking team members to do. Um, and so I. Started to come in and work with teams, um, and help them become high performing and getting them all on the same page.

And then leaders started bringing me into their mix to say, Hey, can you come help us? What’s going on here? And so what I typically find is when I’m brought in, uh, we usually have a group of leaders, um, from different parts of the business or maybe even the same part of the business that just don’t actually learn how to communicate well with each other.

Um, and are not aligned and having really tough, honest conversations about what are the things that we should be focused on as either a company or as a department. Um, and when we don’t have that kind of alignment, then all the folks at the team level and the individual contributor level of course are gonna be struggling because we’re getting directions from possibly different leaders.

Um, and that’s where. We’ve been able to come in and just get some clarity, but not only get clarity across the leaders, but then how do you actually communicate that down line so that it can execute on whatever it is that you’re trying to accomplish within your, within your teams or your company.

So on that note, what are some best practices or some things that you think leaders across the different levels can pay attention to? Can, can do to ensure that if the leadership team is aligned, that then, or assuming it is that then it can trickle down into the different levels 

Yeah. Yeah, so probably the, the most common thing that we see is that it doesn’t trickle down, right? That’s like the biggest problem that we have because we see that they get into a room, they might all agree, but then there’s never ever a plan at the end of the day to say, okay, now what do we do with this?

How do we make sure that everybody gets rowing in the same direction? So the first thing would be make sure you have a communication plan, and that is consistent with whoever is communicating across the organization and into the downlines. Um, the other thing is. Check in frequently with all your different teams, right?

So if it’s a weekly cadence or a monthly cadence, but whatever you’ve decided, make sure that your teams are still, um, like, understand exactly what it is that we’re supposed to be doing. We’re on the same page and have some of that, that free flowing feedback up and down the chain. So if there is confusion or there isn’t clarity, leaders need to make sure they’re aware of that, right?

Because a lot of times they’ll get into a room, they’ll talk about it. Maybe they’ll somewhat communicate and then they expect a way to execute. They never ask the questions, do they have what they need? Are they being blocked? Do they, are there decisions that they need? Like, what can I do to unstick you?

And so I think there’s, you know, there’s always that kind of like first cascading the conversation and the communication downwards, but then allowing feedback to come back to allow them to say, okay, how do we help you? And how do we ensure you have what you need to get? Whatever’s done, needs to get done.

I’m gonna try to get even more granular with this. When you said, make sure you have a communication plan, let’s say the organization, it’s a team or a, you know, if the company 200, 300 employees and they decide they want to incorporate AI or a, you know, test out an experiment with some AI technology, they are gonna make a plan and have a strategy in place on how they’re going to do this. you said have a communication plan in place, what would that entail in that specific scenario? 

So first it’s, it’s setting out the large vision. This is what we’re trying to accomplish, making sure that you have a forum or a vari variety of forums for that team or for those team members to hear it, to understand it. Uh, then ensure that you have a, a really good, um, forum or some sort of a feedback loop.

So whether it be through either, um. Uh, like a team community chat or some sort of other, other format there that you can communicate it backwards so they can ask questions. So you wanna make sure, okay, this is, this is the, the plan, this is how we’re gonna do it, this is the frequency that we’re gonna do it, and here’s who is, who’s responsible and accountable.

To execute on that plan. So it’s really making sure that it’s, it’s the who, the what, the where, the when has been addressed and that you’re holding whoever is accountable for that, accountable to, to execute upon that. Um, so hopefully that as long as there’s something that they, they say, okay, this is exactly what we’re gonna do, and we do it.

That’s where we often find that companies are better and are able to communicate.

Okay. And you just spoke about the execution and one of the things that you talk about is having an execution rhythm. I’m in our work, we’re all about, uh, you know, systems and making sure that you have a leadership and an operating system in place, one that you keep iterating that allows you to grow and scale your leadership responsibilities.

So I was really curious to hear more about the quarterly execution rhythm that you talk about. And how, maybe even how that ties into the example we just addressed with, with, let’s say AI and then a communication plan that goes along with that. 

Yeah. So when, when we start to put in a quarterly execution rhythm, we really wanna make sure that every quarter we’re getting the key leaders together. Uh, we spend time, we, we do some time, spend some time doing some leadership development, honestly, and some team development. But then we sit down, we talk about what is the strategy for the year.

Uh, what are the, the one to three, no more than three to four, uh, initiatives or priorities that we wanna accomplish as a company across the board? So that’s kind of where we start with the execution rhythm. Um, and then we talk about now how we break that down into bite-sized quarterly pieces. So we do an annual plan, we do a quarterly plan, and then with that quarterly plan, we really make sure that the team has the understanding and again, the communication and the cascading down as to what we’re trying to accomplish.

So that’s where. We sometimes see, you know, we might have the best strategy in the world and we might put in place a nice rhythm within the team, but if we haven’t communicated it downward, it doesn’t matter. ’cause you probably won’t achieve it because you’re, you’re basically putting it on the shoulders of the leaders as opposed to actually communicating it downward into the teams and into the different, um, individual contributors.

And into the team managers. So when we have the annual plan, we have the quarterly plan, and then we keep meeting every quarter, right? As a leadership team. And so, and, and really holding that group accountable and the company accountable to say, all right, we put this plan in place. Did we achieve what we say we were going to?

Why or why not? How do we do something better now? What do we wanna do for the next quarter? So it becomes a very, um, prescriptive type of rhythm. And that we know we’re gonna put together a plan, we’re gonna execute upon it, and we’re gonna come back in retrospect on it. And then we’re gonna continue to re, to put another plan in place each quarter.

So that’s really the rhythm that we’re looking for. Um, and then the expectation is that leaders come together. Every month, if not every week, to hold each other accountable. Are we executing, like we said we’re going to or are we not? So really you want, and it just kind of sounds funny, but you want this like execution rhythm to be boring.

Like you, you, you want it to be very predictable. Like, okay, we have another quarterly, this is the expectation. We’re gonna set our initiatives, we’re gonna say our outcomes. We’re gonna execute upon it. And then if we don’t, we’re gonna say why or we’re not. And we, we really wanna make sure that folks just get into that kind of, um, predictable but just pattern of working together.

And that way our teams understand, okay, every quarter we’re probably gonna be changing a little bit about what is our focus. Or we may not, we may actually say, Hey, we’re gonna do something that’s gonna last us three quarters. Let’s make sure we do it well. And we are providing the tools for everybody that they need to actually accomplish what we’re looking for.

So you mentioned just now there that only, um, there only, only have a few priorities. 

Yeah. 

Not 4, 5, 6, 7. 

Yeah.

this again, is something seems very common sense, but it’s not common practice because it’s hard to do to actually hone in on a set of key priorities. And every time I talk to a leader about what is it that you want to achieve and what is it that you actually do, they’re um, they’re often able to tell me their priorities in terms of goals. 

Yeah.

when we look at how they’re spending their time. That is not reflected in their calendar because so many other things show up. What would you recommend for someone who finds themself in this situation? They’re very clear on those main strategies, but then day to day just does not look like that. 

Yeah. So first thing gonna be why, what do you have on your plate that is distracting you? Uh, are there things, are you, are we firefighting or are we actually doing fire prevention, which usually we’re firefighting? Um, do we have the right. People in place in order to support us to achieve those goals. Um, you know, when you look at your calendar, I don’t know about you, but I’m, I color code a lot of things on my calendar.

And so you might even just going back and being like, okay, I, this was stuff that was related to the goals and to the initiatives and to where we’re trying to go versus these are meetings that were potentially could have been handled differently or were not at all related to, or I was firefighting or whatever.

Um, and then really kind of doing a step back to like, okay, why do I spend most of my day. Doing things that are not related to the goals or to the initiatives. And I think if you kind of start to look at that and are there other opportunities? Can I, can I delegate this to another team member? Can I pull in other folks to help me?

Like how do I get things off my plate so they can focus on the most high priority things for the company or for my team or department, depending on where you’re at within the organization.

And so this is like. A question, then someone says, um, all sounds good, 

Yeah.

can delegate all of those things. But then senior leader comes along and says, drop everything. We gotta solve this client issue or drop everything. We gotta put this feature out because our prospects needs it, and they’re not gonna sign the deal unless we develop this feature.

And 

Right.

there goes the plan, there goes the idea with the priorities. In situations like this, really in the trenches, what are your suggestions for leaders or managers caught in that, 

Yeah. 

situation? 

Yeah. So it really is about, I, for me, when I’m coaching, I’m working with leaders that are in the trenches, you know, and they’re getting things dropped in their lap and like, stop everything. This is now a high priority. It’s about taking a moment and, and you’re not, um, you’re not arguing with your leader, but you’re just clarifying.

Okay. I just wanna make sure that you’re, that I’m supposed to stop. Whatever I had on my plate initially. Um, and that we’re gonna pick this up as a new priority. And, and the impact that we to do that will be that this will not move forward, or we may not complete this customer request, or we may not miss, you know, developing this feature or whatever it is.

Um, and get that clarity and have them understand the impact of what it is to, to, to stop something and to pick something else up new. ’cause as you know. By doing that, that usually tends to have, have a repercussion down the line. Um, and as long as you have that clarity and you have that conversation, it’s almost a negotiation to say, yes, we are gonna do that.

Yes, we give that direction. Um, and then they also take ownership of. Sending you in a new direction possibly. Or they may say, oh, that’s a good point. I never thought about that. How long is it gonna take for you to finish this other thing? How long is it gonna, you know, if, if we were to put this as a higher priority, what is that gonna do here?

So, you know, it becomes a really good negotiation conversation. And I feel like those are great skills as you’re, as a, a, you know, frontline leader, first time leader, to learn how to set expectations and also how to negotiate, um, and just clarify decisions and outcomes.

Which is actually a really, I think, a really good point because it is a skill to develop to not only, know, have the knowledge that you understand where the company is going and what those um priorities are on that, on the business level or the department level, but then also to be able to. Take a request that’s coming in and maybe you negotiate the deadline, maybe you negotiate the scope of it, but maybe you’re also asking, wait a second, is this what we’re trying to achieve with that request? this really the only way to do that? Or would there be other ways that we can achieve whatever we are looking for over here that the senior leader may not be aware of because they are not close to the problem as, um, we might be and, and. 

That’s like a really good point because it’s being able to ask that leader like, what is the outcome that you hope to achieve? And if they cannot answer that, that might be the conversation that needs to continue. Right? Because sometimes leaders will come in and tell you exactly how to do it, but to your point, we may not know why.

Right. They, they’ve already figured out in their head. But again, as if you can. Figure out like what is the outcome? To your point, we might be able to have a better way of going about it than exactly how it’s been created, possibly in a senior leader’s head. And you might actually get more creative when you take that to your teams to say, okay guys, we gotta do this.

Here’s the outcome that we’re hoping to achieve, and we also have this other priority. What recommendations do you have? And as a leader, you know you’re helping to one. Put some of that accountability and ownership into your team’s laps, um, as well as then helping you to go back to your leader, say, okay, there might be a different way that we can do that now that we understand what you’re trying to accomplish, we can do both.

And here’s the timelines and the expectations. So I think you’ve got some power there when you can really not only pause them and say, okay, tell me exactly what is the goal or the outcome, and then how do we actually achieve both if, if it’s possible or not. Um, and have those have those really great conversations with your senior leaders.

I think that is when oftentimes leaders say we need our, um, our newer managers or even our ICS and our high performers to think more broadly about the business and to. 

Yeah.

critically about the direction they’re taking or their priorities. I think a lot of it is reflected, or that skill can be demonstrated in exactly those conversations that we have maybe sort of ad hoc or in other one-on-ones. 

Yep. Yep. For sure.

One aspect of misalignment or recurring sort of realignment and changes of priorities is not just the loss in efficiency that can happen, but also mental and emotional load that we put on the team. And I, I think back at a, at a conversation with a client I had a few years ago who said, I don’t remember a single quarter when we didn’t have a reorg. In in their startup. 

Right, right.

You could just tell like, gosh, the, they felt so drained. It was like, yet another reorg. You gotta be kidding me. And it became a bit of a joke to them too, but it was not in a funny way, but just like, you, you can’t believe this organization, what is going on? And they turned, they started to have, um, a huge retention problem because people were just like, I’m outta here.

This, I’m wasting my time constantly rethinking and redoing everything. there is a fine line between like, we gotta keep up with the changes of the market. We gotta keep realigning and make sure that we, uh, adapt. But then also the cost right on the team when priorities are unclear or priorities change all the time.

And we may have these beautiful communication plans. And then the execution very different because we adapt too much. Uh. What is your experience working sort of in the trenches with teams when it comes to the human aspect? 

Yeah, I mean I’ve seen this all the time. I actually just spoke speaking to a leader not too long ago. It’s like, I think I’ve had four managers in the past year, which is crazy. That kinda goes back to your, you know, reorging and you know, when, when we have that, um. As you know, there is a lot of fatigue.

People get really frustrated. They don’t believe in what we’re doing. Uh, there is not clarity, um, in what it is that we’re hoping everybody will accomplish within the organization. I mean, I’ve lived in that world. I’m like, okay, now what’s the flavor of this month and what are we doing, you know, next month?

And all those things. And so people actually stop, you know, wanting to be a part of this change and a part of the bigger picture because they’re just like waiting for the next thing to come down the pike. Um, and so that’s where leaders need to be very cognizant of like, okay. We said we wanna do this, now we’re changing course, or we’re realigning, or we’re reorging, or we’re doing this or we’re doing that.

And really, that then starts to get your company kind of just almost like spinning in seven different directions. Um, and so if you can stay focused and keep everybody on the same page and try to get them rowing in the same direction, I use that term a lot, but it’s true, right? We want everybody kind of knowing what’s happening.

You’re gonna be able to get your outcomes a lot faster. But if you’re constantly like shifting priorities and shifting where people are reporting to and who they’re working for. Are they still in this, in this line of business or that line of business? You know, you’re gonna, it is just, all that churn is unnecessary and it’s causes a lot of angst, I think, and anxiety, which isn’t necessary.

So as much as you can protect your teams and keep them soup focused, it’s gonna help them to just stay comfortable and confident in what they’re doing and not be like in this world of change fatigue. And who do I report to now and what are we trying to accomplish now? And are we going in a different direction?

And some people thrive on that. Um, especially when you see a lot of change of leadership at the senior level. You know, some, when they come in, they wanna make a mark on their, all right, I’m gonna come in and I’m gonna reorg, but like, really think about, you know, is that the right thing? If it’s not broken, you know, do we need to reorg immediately or can we actually kind of learn the organization, figure out better ways to work together without causing a lot of churn internally?

When a team or someone who might be listening to this notice is no, we’re actually already kind of down that path where we feel tired of all the change, um, and shifting priorities. Or the lack of clarity, um, you know, one-on-ones are a good way to surface some of this and support it too, what are, yeah, maybe around one-on-ones and beyond.

What are your suggestions for someone who’s dealing with this right now? 

Yeah. You know, I. I, a lot of times I’m, I’ve been coaching a leader recently and he keeps asking, you know, what can I do to support you? And I think that’s a really tough question because that’s a very open-ended question. Um, ’cause we’re like, I don’t know, mom, I what? I don’t know. Maybe just keep helping me.

Right. I think being very specific when you’re as a leader with a one-on-one, you know, what decisions do you need for me? Uh, what is unclear that you’re working on? Is there something that I can clarify for you? Uh, what is the, the, the top three things that are on your plate that you’re focused on from a priority standpoint?

Um, so very specifically asking them and seeing if they understand what it is that we’re looking for them to do. Um, if they don’t, those should be clear, like. Those should actually be like signals for you as a leader. Like, okay, time out. I need to really make sure this, this person or my team has what they need to be supported.

Do I need to clear roadblocks, make decisions, give them refocus on priorities, help to understand, you know, where we’re having confusion, we don’t understand what we’re trying to accomplish. So when you hear that and actually act on it, it’s gonna be much your, your team is one gonna respect you and I think you’re gonna see a lot better results, um, because of your being engaged and interested in what’s going on.

On a one-on-one as well as with the team as a whole.

Do you have a favorite question? Other than the, like the one that would replace, 

Um, 

how can I better support you? 

uh, there’s a couple ones like, what is one thing that we should stop doing? Right. We never ask that. ’cause we’re always asking like, what are we, what, you know, what are we gonna work on next? But like, what is one thing I can take off your plate? Or what is one thing that, that we need to stop doing that’s gonna help you to accomplish A, B, C, X, Y, Z, whatever it is that we’re, we’re working on.

Um, that one is, I use that one a lot with leaders too. Um, when I’m working with senior leaders, like, okay, great, you have all these things. Now, what are you gonna stop working on so that you can actually accomplish these goals that you want? So I think that’s a good one. Um, and then what, either, what decisions do you need from me or what can I, what, you know, where are you blocked?

How can I unblock you? How can I make sure that you have everything that you need in order to do your, to do your job?

I think there’s, there’s so much power in having just a, it’s like the tiny book, the tiny black book of questions, but. 

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Makes such a difference in leadership when we default, whether we default to sort of the simple questions, similar to, have any feedback for me, 

Yeah. 

not much is gonna come with that.

And then like, no, everything’s great. And then we walk away and we think like a, I don’t give enough feedback, but also maybe everything is actually great. Both of those assumptions are actually not true. They’re the result of the way the question was asked. Uh, there’s definitely feedback that we 

Yeah.

always something that we could share. Um, there is also, of course, there’s also true that a lot of things are going well, but we have to ask the Right,

question and the tiny black book of questions like the one you said, like, what do you need to stop doing? What do we need to stop doing? 

right.

great question to create 

Yeah.

find like, going back to the alignment, I find that question, and it sounds a bit woo woo, but it leads to really good conversations. question, what do you believe the purpose of your role is? 

That’s a great one. Yes.

In this season, in this quarter, this year, whatever, you know, timeframe, you wanna put that on ’cause roles evolve. Uh, but that really gets people thinking like, Yeah. what’s other than just executing tasks, like, why am I here? What’s my role? what I find, like asking that you, have a different answer in my head than what I typically hear most of the time.

Yeah. And I also think as long as you can create the safe space, right? Because right now I feel like we’re in a really interesting world of flux and people are like, wait a minute, why is she asking me that? Like, if I don’t, if I don’t answer the question right, am I gonna still have a job if I don’t know what my role is?

So I think it’s also creating, building that, that relationship with that person one-on-one, um, with your great questions, but also making sure like. Like they have comfort in answering questions from you and, you know, giving feedback. They may not feel comfortable giving as a leader, giving you feedback, right?

Or you as a leader may not be comfortable giving them feedback. And so I think back to your point of how can we, you know, ask really good, like in that last meeting, do you have any feedback for me? So very specific, like what went well, what didn’t go well, um, and then listening and like how you respond is really critical too as a leader.

So I think, you know, as you’re in those one-on-ones, if they do have feedback for you, do you, do you actually receive it well? And do you take the feedback and do you thank them for the feedback? Um, those are all all tricks and tips, I think, um, for first time leaders on how to become a better leader and how to support your, in your one-on-ones.

Yeah, and I’d probably say not just great tips for first time leaders, but probably not, not just for right, for first time leaders. In fact, um, especially when it comes to feedback, more senior leaders have, uh, often a harder time, not, not a harder time with the feedback, but it’s harder for them to get feedback 

Yes, yes.

to do the follow up just because on the intensity of the job.

Um. 

Right, right. Yeah. They have a lot on their plate, like especially the middle leaders, like middle managers. I mean, if you think about it, they’re, they’ve got direct reports reporting into them. Maybe they’ve even got like leaders and then direct reports. They’ve got their peers, they’ve got their senior leaders, so they’ve got everybody pushing on them.

Um, and it is hard to ask for feedback and to get everything to, to continue to keep all the balls in the air. But I do think I do, you know, one of the things that we ask in our 360 survey is. You know, you know, on a scale of one to 10, how is this person in, um, giving or getting feedback? And more often than not, I hear like, oh, I don’t know.

They don’t usually ask me for feedback, but I’m sure if they did, they’d be open to it. Right? So I think there is a perception that most people are open to feedback, but they don’t usually take the time to stop and ask for it. To say, Hey, tell me how I did in that meeting, or tell me, you know, what, do you need me to stop?

You know, what do you need me to do to, to help you, to support you in your role? That type of thing. Um, so I think it is, it is kind of a key skill that we often give feedback as middle leaders, but we don’t actually ask for feedback back to us and getting it.

Your 360 process, another um, piece that I wanted to touch on. Because when we use 360 and coaching engagements are with teams or organizations who often incorporate such a process of getting feedback from multiple people, sort of around a person or a leader, that that happens as part of their performance review and really fuels the conversations and the insights that someone personally gets, but also ideally then their manager gets to support their growth. 

Right.

Uh, and what, um, you know, behind the scenes for you seeing a lot of 360 feedback coming back and looking at this, what are some of the common blind spots that 

Thanks.

say like, yep, okay, this keeps coming up, or Nowadays keeps coming up even more than it used to. 

Right. So our sixties maybe a tad bit different than, than some or most, um, so we actually do an interview based 360, and we go in and we, we interview every single person that that person has identified. So it’s usually 10 or 11 of their people in their hemisphere. I always call it their hemisphere. Uh, so one, it allows us to go a little bit deeper, so not just answering like, again, if you’ve.

If you’ve been with somebody in a meeting and it didn’t go well and you’re then you have a 360 and you know, I’m an name of five, that was terrible, right? So we try not to be that emotional, um, reaction survey. We actually have the interviews, we ask questions, you know, we kind of watch, we do ’em virtually.

We watch the Zooms to figure out like, okay, they kind of made a weird face there, or they didn’t wanna say something, and we try to dive a little bit deeper. But, um, a lot of what I’m seeing is. Um, either it’s an executive presence, you know, so something like they, they just are not ready to move into the next level because they’re missing executive presence.

Um, a lot of it is being confident in who they are and being able to make tough decisions, um, and, and delegation. Like those are kind of some of the common themes, um, as you get up within the ranks. It’s interesting because, you know, we will interview your peers, we’ll interview your direct reports, we’ll interview your leaders, and so.

As you get up in the ranks, we often find that your peers are the ones that maybe have a harder time working with you, right? Um, as opposed to when you’re, you know, potentially newer in your role as a leader. Um, it might be something a little bit different. So it, you know, as I watch these kind of progressions of leaders, it depends like, how are you supporting all the different people?

That you work with. And so, um, we try to really make sure, okay, like, Hey, your direct reports love you. You’re doing a fantastic job. Your clients love you. You’re doing a fantastic job. But your senior leaders want to see more of you, right? They wanna see the executive presence. They wanna see the confidence, they wanna see decision making and delegation.

And it’s time for you to kind up your game and up your leader. Skills to be able to jump to that next level. So, um, those are a lot of the common themes that we get pulled in for. So, you know, come in, help coach us, do some three sixties. Those are usually what we’re hearing, why, um, and then there usually might be something else, one or two other things that they’re looking for.

Why do you think it is that working with peers is trickier at a higher level? 

Um, I think, you know, as a leader you need to be able to reach across the aisle, right? And you need to be able to build that relationship too. That relationship actually might be the most important relationship. Then, then your downlines. And I know people might be like, no, I don’t agree with that. However, in order to be able to get things done and get things accomplished, it’s how do we, you know, is that your team that you kind of work with first as opposed to your downlines?

And I think that’s where people often forget, like there’s the whole Patrick Lencioni first team thing can also go down in, within the organization. So when you can look across. And reach across and figure out like, how do we all come together? Um, you’re gonna have greater success than trying to be working against your peers.

And that friction, it’s interesting because it’s almost like we become very competitive. I’ve seen a lot of organizations like, oh wait, we’re all vying for the same potential opportunities. It’s not true though, because if we can accomplish a goal together, we’re gonna be way more successful than us kind of doing our own thing and trying to, I hate to say it, but like kind of climb over each other up the, as we go up the ladder, as we go up the chain within a company.

What’s your go to move? And you walk into, uh, a, a client and you realize like, oh, that, that competition is present and not in a good way, not like the positive kind of competition, but the one where it creates silos. what’s your approach there? 

Um, I actually, it’s funny ’cause I will, I will share the Patrick Lencioni video. He is got a really quick little video that’s like, who is, who’s your, who’s your first team? And kind of ask that, I ask that question first, like, who’s your first team? And nine times outta 10, oh, it’s my, my downline, right? It’s, it’s whoever reports in to me, it’s my downline.

And then the video really talks about, no, it’s actually the people that are, are your peers in the room around you. In order to build that strong foundation, you’re gonna be able to be much more successful. So I first just, I put it out there. And I just make it known. Um, and maybe that’s a little bit jarring for people, right?

But, um, I think sometimes you just have to have very open, honest conversations and be like, Hey, this is, this is what we’re seeing, this is what we’re hearing. Um, and then start to have that conversation. Are you, do you feel that this is your first team? You know, and you kind of, I kind of gauge like. How trustful and transparent are these folks in the room?

And if they’re like, oh yeah, no, you know, the ones that say, no, no. Then I know we’ve got some transparency and there’s some ways to work with the ones that all agree with me. I’m like, okay, that’s not really true. Right? And then we start to put in place, okay, what does it, what does it mean to actually make these people, your first people that you work with make this your, this is the actual more important team that you’re working with as opposed to your downlines.

Um, then we do work around that. So when I was talking about kind of our execution rhythm and, and the development work we do, sometimes we’ll do work on getting that team stronger, um, as throughout the year in each of our quarterly sessions and getting them to learn how to work better together as opposed to getting their downlines, um, stronger.

Mm-hmm. 

It all kind of comes. 

Yeah. 

Full circle, I don’t wanna say 360, but all kinds of comes full circle, right? That then you can get the alignment, then you can get the conversations, then you can communicate the plan. So like there’s a whole kind of process to it, as long as you can build that high performance.

Well, Yeah. And then you have throughout the different departments or or sub-teams, you then have actual cohesion because the team, the leadership team sends a cohesive message to everyone else.

Yeah. And then if there are things happening in somebody else’s area and that leader’s maybe not aware of it, you’re comfortable like surfacing it up. And saying, you know, we’ve been struggling with your folks and your team. How do we, what can we do to support you? How do we come together? How do we do the same thing?

Um, a lot of times they’re having cross collaboration anyway, and we don’t even know it. So it’s important to have that conversation or, or have those open lines of communication.

Right. You mentioned. That one of the blind spots you recognize is executive presence. 

Yeah.

And, you know, we do a lot of work around executive presence and, um, break it down into four different pillars. But I’m always curious of like, what, what is your I um, definition of executive presence, and maybe more importantly, how do you see executive presence actually get in the way of someone getting promoted? 

Yeah, it’s funny for me, executive presence is one of those things that I think is really interesting, right? Because it’s a perception. Right. It’s somebody’s perception of you and can you sit in a room and hold court, um, and have good conversations and work with leaders and work with executives, um, and, and talk to them in a calm, rational, data-driven, factual manner.

You hear them, you know how to bottom line, it’s all these little pieces and things. But again, at the end of the day, I think it does come down to perception. So one of the examples is. I was brought in to coach this one leader who I’ve actually been working with now for five, over five years. ’cause he and I started working together, I guess it’s six, right before COVID started.

We actually, our, our engagement was like, oh, now we’re all going home. Now what are we doing? And I was brought in to coach him because his leader felt like he did not have the executive presence that he was looking for, for him to move to the next level. And then when we did the 360, all his direct reports, all of his customers, um, all of his, everybody that kind of worked, all of his peers.

It didn’t said that was not a problem. It was only the leader’s problem that this person was missing executive presence. So for me it’s kind of a tough one. ’cause yes, I think there’s some, some common traits and characteristics that you’re looking for, but then it also comes down to the perception of the people that are, that are around you, that are your leaders that are hoping to say, okay, yes, this person is ready to sit at the boardroom or sit in the next level leader meeting.

Um, so I know that’s probably, people are like, no, no, no, I want specifics, but it is, I mean. It’s good communications, it’s understanding what’s going on in the room. It’s asking great questions. It’s being able to bottom line, it’s having, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s controlling your emotions and having emotional intelligence, um, but it’s also making sure people see you as a leader and as a potential executive that can continue to move up in the organization.

Yeah. And I, I think you make a good point. Sometimes it’s not everyone’s perception of you in terms of those particular skills, Right.

Sometimes, even when, when I debrief a 360 with, with a client and we say. There are things in the 360, there are actual skill gaps that come up or behavioral changes that are required for you to be more effective in your role.

Right.

But then there are also things that you are actually already doing the right thing. You are already doing that well, but people either misinterpret it, they don’t understand your intention behind it or they don’t see it. And so. It could be that you’re actually good with thinking critically or being quick on your feet, or pushing back when needed, but when it comes to your one senior leader, that person may be a little intimidating, and so you feel like they’re too assertive, or in their presence, it might not be appropriate to push back enough.

And then it’s exactly that leader that says like, yeah, no, they’re, they don’t 

Yeah. Right. It’s a perception. So again, being able to get that feedback like in the 360 is helpful. ’cause then you’re like, oh, this is how I’m perceived. ’cause that’s what 360 are. It’s how you’re perceived. Right? And so if you’re perceived that you’re lacking executive presence, okay, I might, you know, I. If I ask my peers, they may think that I have all the executive presence in the world, but if my leaders perceive that, I don’t, I gotta figure out how to, how to change that gap, that perception gap.

Um, or it might be a true gap. It might be a real gap to your point. Um, but it is a perception thing and that’s, I mean, this is, that’s the reality of, of, of companies and organizations and leaders and all the dynamics. It’s, is, you know, how do you show up and how do you bring all the skills that you need to, to continue to move up in your career?

Exactly. Um, Betsy, thank you so much for coming on the Men Track podcast. I always think it’s so, um, insightful to hear people, other people like come in and talk about what it actually looks like behind the scenes of working with teams and with leaders. often the work that we don’t see. It happens behind closed doors, it happens in private. Um. Rooms sometimes over zoom from someone’s home. And we may not recognize how a leader gets coached on the backend, how a team does work during their offsites that is related to, and, and really focus on their. Interpersonal dynamics. And so we may be an employee in an organization who just think it all comes somewhat natural and some people are more talented than others, and we don’t see how much work goes into it.

So I hope that in addition to everything else that you shared, that was very insightful, that our audience also picks up that, oh, there’s a lot that happens. You know, it’s a lot of 

Yeah,

coaching that happens, uh, that may, we may not be exposed to. 

most executives either have a coach or have been coached, um, and there is a lot of work that goes into it, right? And so they are all, and they’re all humans. They’ve all worked their way up. You know, and they’re, they’re, they’re, they’re still trying to figure it out too. So, I mean, I’m gonna be really honest with you.

A lot of times, you know, I get emails and texts. I’m like, I’m trying to get this email right. I’m trying to get this conversation right. And they’re, you know, very senior leaders. Um, and so they run things by me or the strategy document or things like that. So the same practice that individual contributors and first.

You know, first, um, first time managers and even, you know, middle managers, your senior leaders are still trying to figure it out and they’re still trying to get it right and they’re human. And sometimes they do amazingly well. And sometimes, you know, they will pause and be like, I don’t know that I did the right thing in that meeting.

And like, you were in that meeting, did you have any feedback for me? And so they’re also a better leader and figure that out as well.

I think the easiest and fastest way to get stuck in a career is to stop asking yourself those questions, to stop being exposed to learning opportunities and to reflect and to really realize like, nah, I’m still learning this too. I’m trying to do better. I’m trying to. better, lead better, all of that.

Um, when we think like, no, no, I got this. I got 10 years, 20 years of experience, I don’t need to invest in it anymore. That’s usually who 

Yeah. 

flatten out and, um, others 

Absolutely, there’s always opportunity to learn something new and learn something more. And I think as long as you continue to stay curious and you know, you, I mean, I learned stuff from all of my, you know, brand new folks that I work with that are just outta college and are just starting their careers.

Like there’s so much stuff that you can learn from each other, and I think as long as you approach it that way as you move up in your career. You’ll be successful and you never know. You might, you know, you’ll end up getting paired with other people and just really having great relationships. Um, it’s funny, I’m coaching this one group right now and one of their initiatives is to bring more AI into their organization, into their department.

And so we’ve got this really awesome young, like, super excited guy to bring the ai and then we’ve got probably oldest leader in the group. Um, and we’ve paired them. And they are having a blast learning from each other and pushing each other. And you know, one of ’em sees it as a mentor and one of ’em sees a mentee, but then there’s also like a technology and learning curve on the other side of it.

And so like, they’re having a very awesome just relationship learning how to, okay. As, as somebody who loves ai, how do I actually help the folks that are maybe a little bit in that aren’t as accustomed to it and love technology as much as I do? And then how do I slow down some of these folks to make sure that we’re bringing in the right tooling and that we’re doing the right thing?

’cause I’ve got, you know, the kind of the experience of the company. So it’s fun to do that kind of pairing as well. If you aren’t as a leader, if you’re, if you’re kind of trying to figure out how to mix up your group a bit, you know, find some different personalities and different, uh, levels of leadership in different age groups, and you might really be surprised as to what comes out of it.

Because of, you know, the dynamics of the workforce are becoming very different and multi-generational. Um, as we continue to have more people staying in the workforce longer.

Beautiful. Yeah, and very important point. Um, thank you Betsy for being on the Manager Track podcast. We will link both of the video that you mentioned by Patrick Lencioni in the show notes. 

Okay, 

uh, link to your bio. 

great.

we’ll also link to your LinkedIn profile and your website too for people who wanna learn more about your work. 

Thanks. Thanks for having me. Great show. Appreciate it. 

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