Vocal Fry, Upspeak, and Nerves: The Habits That Undercut Your Presence - with Kathryn Janicek

When you watch a senior leader or the CEO handle a hard question at an all-hands meeting or on stage and it all looks effortless, here is what you're not seeing. They have a coach, maybe even two or three coaches.

My guest today says that it's the industry's worst kept secret, and the people who make it to the top tend to figure it out early. Kathryn Janicek spent 20 years as a television news producer, including three Emmys, and put Fortune 500 CEOs on camera and watching most of them arrive unprepared. Now she coaches them for a living. We talk about what it takes to succeed on a bigger stage, and that includes bigger team meetings, all hands, client presentations, and so forth.

We also cover why the work she does and you might wanna do cannot be crammed into the days before the presentation.

We talk about being authentic and being effective. We talk about uptalk, vocal fry, preparing for presentations, and so much more. If you've ever assumed your competence would carry you and be sufficient, then this conversation is one you need to hear.

My name is Ramona Shaw, and this is The Manager Track podcast. And with that, let's welcome Kathryn to the show.

Kathryn, thanks so much for being on The Manager Track podcast. I'm very much looking forward to this conversation with you.

Thank you for having me on, Ramona.

I'd love to start off with understanding a bit more about your background and the work that you do. And, I was just sharing with you in the green room here that a lot of times people, leaders don't know how much prep work goes into being on stage or communicating well because it seems so effortless.

And the work that we both do, and you do specifically with your team, with leaders is all and often behind the scenes. What inspired you to kind of dive into this and work with leaders specifically on their presence?

What inspired me was 20 years of having people on my television shows and seeing, wow, you know, this is a CEO of a very large company, and he wasn't ready, or she wasn't ready, or boy, they could have had much better impact. There, they weren't thinking about what color to wear on camera or even what is their soundbite that's going to actually make it or make someone buy their product in Walmart or at Target or move the stock market or whatever they need to do.

And it's so interesting that just people you know, being on stages, being in the media, they think, I should know how to do this, so I shouldn't have to hire someone," or, "If I feel like I'm not good at this, what will people think if I hire a coach? Because then they'll know that I am not confident about this or that I feel like I need a coach." If, the big secret is that all, everyone has a coach. They all have hired somebody and that's why it looks so effortless, as you said, on camera or on stage. I have been doing trainings in front of hundreds of people for a few years now, and I still make sure that our videographer records me because I catch issues now, and I've been doing this for a couple years. We go into a Fortune 500 leader and we find ways that they can be more impactful really quickly. We have people who come onto sales calls and say, "I'm a very good speaker, so I'm sure I'm not gonna need this full package." And then we get in and we show them what they look like on camera or what their voice sounds like or that they drop ends of their sentences or whatever they do or their body language isn't right and then we're like, "You know, we only, you only wanted to work together for a month.

We need a lot more time to get ready for this keynote that's coming up this fall." So everyone's always surprised, but the really smart people know that they had three or four coaches to get where they are today.

Yeah, and I think that's, sort of the, the secret that, it shouldn't really be a secret, but many people kinda underestimate how much goes into it and, how much this is needed. And I think it speaks to the competence factor. Like, a lot of people will think, "I am competent and therefore I'm prepared."

So if you say you work with someone who might have some hesitations or resistance in the full package, what are the things that convince a leader to recognize "Yes, you're right. My competence only gets me so far." Or what's, what's really at stake for them?

Some people are never gonna be convinced, right? You know, the best leaders, or best folks that come on a call or whatever and we start talking, they say, "I'm realizing now what got me here isn't going to get me to the next level," or, you know, "I've read a book," or whatever it is, or, "Folks around me have said that," or, "My mentors," or someone in a, in a group of you know, friends have said, you know, g- "They got coaches."

So, some people are not going to be convinced because they think that they're so great and that they can't be coached. I will tell you, most times my client is not the one hiring me. It's their It's their head of communications. It's their VP of marketing. It's the HR person. It's the learning and development folks who say, "Our leadership team needs this desperately." So it's not the person who I end up coaching for that big earnings call or moving up from CFO or COO to CEO or getting ready for their keynote. It's usually that person isn't hiring our company.

So let's get a little bit more practical. When we think about, someone listening who says like, "Okay, I'm getting... I'm, I'm buying into this," hence they're listening to this podcast, and they're also, wondering where to start. I think there's on one hand sort of the practical, where do I even begin with this? 'Cause there's so much that goes into it. And then there's the emotional part of how do I deal with my nerves so that what I'm actually learning ahead of time I'll then also apply effectively. Can you speak to the two and give a few suggestions each for someone who's kinda new to the field, a low-hanging fruit maybe that they can start practicing?

Nerves are something that this is, this is something we have to be working on every day. You know? What we coach on cannot be learned the day before. And I will tell you, that's what's really hard is a lot of folks will hire us and say, "Can you coach our team the day before or a couple days before?" That they're going to get on stage or they're gonna do this media interview.

And you can do a lot of work. You can help with the sound bite, the messaging, the body language a little bit. But when it comes to nerves or mindset, confidence, all those things, that's something that it's, it's a learned behavior. And we learn to not be confident, and then we can learn to be confident.

And all of us, you know, I think a I watch, I have a seven-year-old, so I have been, watching young girls on the soccer field or ballet or whatever. And it's interesting 'cause I'm wondering where I'm gonna see in real life when people just biologically or whatever, societally, lose their confidence.

Because we all had more confidence at one point, and then something helped us lose our confidence. So, imagine going, years or decades of just not feeling that, you know, you're 1000% great on a stage. How can you just learn that in two days or three days? So, that nervous part is definitely a huge hurdle to get through, so it takes time. I like to, there's a, there's a quick thing I like to just remember if it helps somebody listening to this podcast, and you don't have months, and you're not, you know, you maybe feel like you, are not gonna reach out to one of us to get coaching. Service over nervous is something that I keep thinking about before I get on a stage.

It is, how can I be of service to this audience right now, this moment? And then it takes out the ego part where I go, "What if I screw up?" Or, "What if I say the wrong word?" Or, you know, we all have that moment of like, "What if I forget my talk or I black out?" And if you just focus on being of service to one person at that moment, the nerves do get better. And if you could just keep focusing on that, whether it's speaking to 1,000 people or going for a raise with your boss or presenting, to a team on a Zoom or a Microsoft Teams meeting, being of service, giving great value, that really helps take away some of those nerves.

I like that. And I also think that sometimes with the service component comes pressure of like, especially for those people who feel like they, it needs to be perfect. So if I'm in service of them, then I need, it needs to be perfect. It's the service that is already there. I think sometimes like we forget that no one else is as, on top of the topic that I'm gonna talk about, be this a status update on a project, no one else has all the information.

So even if you weren't to prepare, what they have two days in advance is already more than anyone else, and that would be enough to provide service to others.

Is kinda on top of that. How about the actual presence? And I'm gonna ask a few follow-up questions 'cause I know you've talked about a few things that I'm really interested in when it comes to voice and presence.

But what are easy fixes, especially things that we might not pay attention to?

Presence is, you know, okay, easy fixes. One is a lot of people don't even realize what they're doing with their body language is, like, shutting people off, is saying, "I don't wanna talk to you." So this is an oldie but a goodie, but, like, just I'm, I'm still seeing people crossing their arms out there when they're talking to people, right? touching their face when they're nervous. When we scratch our face, this is a sign of, like, I'm, I'm uncomfortable with the line of questioning, or I'm unsure of myself. I maybe didn't do all my homework, or I don't... You know, I... We do these things when we're nervous. So if you can try to teach yourself to keep your hands down at a, at an area where this is more confident and open and not I'm nervous or I'm shut off from you, that's big, you know?

Nice open body language. That is can be really huge when it just...

That's a quick tweak when it comes to executive presence.

I just moved my arm from this to this.

As we were talking, some of this is, I notice it true, right? Some of these things are not conscious. I remember, someone commented on a video that I posted, and they said, "I just can't deal with the hands." And I realized, yeah, I was probably doing this a lot, and especially if there's a camera, if you're on Zoom, it's this unconscious stuff that we build in as little habits we're not aware of that then actually either signal something we don't intend to signal, like being closed off, or they distract from our message, like moving my hands in the camera too much.

Yeah. I had-- You know, I'll give you an example. I remember watching years ago a very smart mayor of a big city here in the United States, and she was on a network news, show in the morning, and she had a bunch of jewelry on, and she had said some very smart things. She helped the economy in this city. But we could not hear anything because her rings were you know, doing this to the mug that she was drinking out of, and it was so distracting and frustrating, I had to shut the TV off. And we don't even know we're doing things that just shut people off from listening to us, and that's a great example of it.

And, you know, once you become cognizant of it, you can you can train yourself to not do these things.

That's what's great. It's all learned behaviors.

Mm-hmm. 100%. There are so many things that I look back and I can tell, oh, in my 20s, I had a tendency, even, you know, feedback that I received about holding eye contact or ums, and just through the practice, these things dissipate. They take patience, for sure, but it is, I fully agree, these are learned skills.

And the impact of it is often bigger than we recognize.

It's, it's a huge impact.

So let's talk about uptalk and authenticity for a minute. let me start with authenticity. When it comes to the changing certain things in how we speak, how we present, you know, I'm sure you see this too, all the clients that you have and support, they come with their unique personalities and their unique styles, and some of it is a bit of like, yep, we wanna preserve their quirks.

And when I say quirks, like in a very positive light. Their, like, uniqueness, and we also wanna elevate them into the direction where their communication becomes more effective. Someone listening who says like, "Yeah, I hear those things, but I am Italian, I just talk a lot with my hands," or, "I do certain things and that's just me," what would you say?

You, we, okay, so first of all, you gotta be yourself, right? We, we should be authentic and for whatever Place we are, right? You know, I, my authentic self sometimes is to be goofy and funny, but when I'm working with a CEO of a Fortune 500 company, my self where I'm with my friends or with my little daughter or sometimes, you know, on vacation or whatever it is, that's should not be my authentic self there, right?

At that moment, they want me, but consistent and steady and helping that leader, okay? They... Yeah, you could be quirky, but is your quirkiness make you late for meetings? Does it, does it make you hard to follow when you're speaking? Does your quirkiness make people wonder where you're looking because your eye contact's going all over the place? we have... It has to be... You, you still need to be a steady leader who's consistent and grounded like an oak tree where people wanna follow and they go, "This person's not gonna let me down." I remember when I was running TV shows back when I was in television for 20 years, and I would have interns say, "Well, I should be able to wear short shorts because this is who I am and this is my authentic self."

And I said, "That is your authentic self at school," which I still disagree that we should wear super short shorts at school, but that's for a whole nother podcast. at NBC Universal in LA, New York, or Chicago, in this place and time, that should not be the part of yourself that you bring, right? As an 20-year-old female, I want you to be taken seriously, and I want people to see a future reporter in Chicago or anchor.

Because once they have a different visual, really hard to gain that trust back. If you want to have tattoos all over your arm and on your forehead and on your neck, then you need to find a workplace that accepts that authentic piece of yourself, right? But if you're okay with covering it up and not complaining about it because this place, this is what their culture is, then that needs to be, you know, you that day or you know, for that workplace.

But so it's tricky, right? It's really tricky. And I'm gonna tell you that, there's a lot of folks who will say... I'm gonna talk about that vocal fry or upspeak. And we can say, "Well, this is how I speak, and I should be accepted for who I am." I'm gonna tell you honestly, if you're listening to this podcast and you have that, there are leaders who come to our company and literally just say, "Please help me get this vocal fry and upspeak out of this leader because I want to see her or him move up And she or he is not being seen as a confident or competent leader because she or he does this.

And I'm saying she or he because we think sometimes that this is a mainly female thing, but I see the vocal fry and the upspeak with men and women, and I am asked to coach it out of equally men and women. And at the end of the day, if this is gonna be the thing that you're gonna die on, like the hill you're gonna die on, and, you know, you're not gonna be seen as a confident leader and move up in your career and make more money, like why not fix that, right? And vocal fry is interesting because people will say, "Well, this is... I want this. This is a part of my personality." But I will tell you, I listen to myself. I watch myself back, and I get into vocal fry like that vocal fry, when I'm nervous, when my vocal cords restrict, when I'm tired, when I'm dehydrated, all those things. That's when that vocal fry also happens. So know that's what it sounds like when people are stressed or not taking care of themselves or tired. And so if that's what the sound is, we don't want leaders to sound like that. So why emulate that because you heard it on a show or you think that sounds relaxed or cool or attainable or humble or whatever it is? Because it's not. It sounds like you're restricting your vocal cords and you're tired, and people want consistent, rested leaders they can count on presenting in front of them.

I think there's also something there, like a little bit deeper where we may have this idea of what gets us to be successful, and we realize, for example, I'm using here myself, as a case study. I learned early on in my life that working hard was going to lead to success.

Of course, there are other factors in, you know, that go into this, but granted that you are somewhat competent and that you are, you have good work ethics overall and are, have integrity and whatnot, and then you work hard, then that will make you more successful. And so at the, at some point I realized like, oh, this idea that I will get more successful from where I am now by just working harder, we have to recognize like, oh, there's a, there's a limit to any of those beliefs.

The perfectionism, the work hard, the know-it-all, or like, you know, going really understanding it all and complex making, you know, seeing things, the complex things.

We have these beliefs of what leads to success, and then we realize like actually in this case that you were mentioning with the person who called and said, "Just get this vocal fry out of the person," I can't put them on a stage or in that room or on the investor call.

They can't represent the company because it's distracting or it's not effective. If that becomes the thing that unlocks the next level, then I'm holding myself back. And I think part of this is really lying to ourselves of what we believe will continue to be successful, makes us successful, and we're rejecting the components that are actually right in front of us because our ego is still so bought into this past strategy.

Like, my ego is still holding on to, "Mm, but I've gotta work hard." And realizing if I look even at the last five years, working hard was not, was not the success factor anymore. It helped me for a good while, and it was helpful. It hasn't been for the last five years. So I have to kinda like shed some skin like a snake to then be open to these new strategies.

Tell me how that sounds to you and how you might see that when working with leaders over a longer time period.

Well, one is, working hard where you don't sleep, where you're, you're working all night. Like I work with a lot of leaders who are not getting enough sleep, you know? And part of the coaching that we do is we can see it in your face. And also they think that they're doing a great job, but then if you ask them a question or if they get, maybe a question they don't want to answer in a surprise way, they react in a way that's not the way they would like to react.

And if we're just only focusing on working really hard and burning the midnight oil, or burning the candle at both ends and not making sure that we are, rested and take care of ourselves and can react in a positive way, we're going to not have that executive presence that is needed to make sure people wanna follow us, that we're magnetic and inspirational, and just working hard is not enough. If you are working so hard where you can't focus on... Say you have a sales call. Say you're a business development person, and you don't give yourself the time. You're doing all this research and stuff, but you don't think about making sure that you sleep, eat right, work out so you're calm in those meetings. Don't put a little lipstick on, brush your hair before the meeting, whatever it is, and look put together, you're not gonna land that client no matter how smart you are. So all that's really important. I mean, there are so many studies. I mean, presidential races have been won by people who are, you know, it's not about, it's, it's about the, sometimes it's about how you look on camera, right? And so it's, it's what got you here sometimes doesn't get you at the next level. We have to look at all the pieces, and it's not just about working really hard.

So I'm gonna go back to something practical because I think when we talked about the vocal fry, there may be like a follow-up question that's, that we left unanswered there, which is if I don't have a coach, but I'd say like, "No, I actually care about these things, and I do wanna improve, like, my voice," the M's for example, the vocal fry, the uptalk, let's use these, one of these three examples.

Those things are hard to break, right? We, we can fully be aware of them, and we know it takes time to do it, but how... what do you do with your clients? Like share some tips and best practices or success stories of what people actually do to get over to the other side.

We drill. Like, we make sure that we drill them. first is you've gotta show them and make sure they hear what they're doing, and explain the fact, like, why that's not serving them. Because if someone doesn't want to fix it, they're not gonna fix it. So we have to first make sure that the desire is there to actually work on it. And then the best thing is to drill. So practice speaking without whatever it is that you're working on. So if you end sentences with a question mark, you need to fill your... Tell everybody in the world that, "I wanna work on fixing this, so every time I do it, let me know that I'm doing it so I just, I'm more cognizant."

Like, and then you realize how often you're doing it. And, and you've gotta practice and listen to back. Okay, try it again. Practice. Listen to it back. Record yourself with your iPhone. Watch it. Don't watch yourself, maybe just listen to it and go, "Okay, I'm getting better." And in our, in our coaching sessions, like, we have tools to show that it is getting better.

You know, what percentage of sentences are sounding better than others? Are the, filler words, they used to be 7%, now they're 3% on month two of coaching. So there's great tools out there, and there's great people you can surround yourself with to just look out for that and coach you and protect you, right? But you've got to first have the desire, and then let people know that you wanna work on it.

I like the point about, sharing it with other people. I think that also takes the little bit of the stigma out of coaching and makes it easy for other people to maybe buy in and say, "Actually, I have the same issue. You know, I use filler words, likes, and right, and really, and actually, way too much," and so we can,, be peers in the process as well.

Yes.

Now, from your experience, on TV but also with leaders, what are some of the things that you changed your mind on? Where maybe you thought like, "Oh, this is the way it should be," and now you realize like, "Oh, maybe I'm changing my mind"?

Hmm. Something, I don't know. I don't know if there's been something very specific that I thought and I changed my mind. I mean, maybe I would say, just like you, Ramona, when I was in my 20s and 30s, I thought it just took being smarter, right? That I didn't know everything, and that's why I wasn't a this or whatever it is.

But you get in there and you realize the, best leaders are not... I mean, shoot, let's, let's... The best leaders surround themselves with the smartest people, right? The best leaders surround themselves with the best subject matter experts. And then the best leaders are people who can be followed, right?

So when you say that we need to do this, everybody to do this. They wanna run through a brick wall for you, right? They feel like, you're a little bit of an evangelist, too. You know? Like, you are, you truly believe in the company, and you truly believe in the outcomes of the company. So if you don't speak like that and walk around the office like that, if you don't exude that, people can see through it and they don't wanna follow you, right? So it's, it's so many levels of that. But I would say something that I just didn't know in my 20s and 30s was that, it doesn't take just being smart or knowing things, right? You really have to be someone who people wanna follow,.

One final question. What are some of the myths that you see in this field that you think that is, either outdated research or something that you find in practice, you know, maybe academically true, but in practice to not be true?

Well, the vocal fry and up-speak, I always thought, and from when I read, you know, early on, it was more of a female thing, and it's definitely not. It's male and female. mindset too. You know, everybody has that inner critic, right, that self-doubt. I don't care what level you're at, you've got an element of that, and people are working really hard.

Like, you're on a stage working to make sure that doesn't take over, it doesn't take over and sabotage you. I don't care what level you're at, there's self-doubt. It's, "Am I gonna let down the team? Am I going to make a mistake up on the stage? Am I gonna blow this media interview?" don't care what level of the company you're at, the, people have inner critic.

They have self-doubt. I remember interviewing huge entertainers who were, you know, in, fill arenas, and they would tell me in TV shows that I would interview them, and they would say, "Please don't ask me this question because, like, I don't wanna talk about it. I'm nervous about talking about it. I might not know the right answer.

I didn't get ready for that," right? Whatever it is. But I don't care who you are. And it's really... It... I feel like that's super freeing if you're listening to that and you're in your 20s, your 30s, if you're at the beginning of your career, to know that your leader has self-doubt, and they are up at night hoping to not screw it up. I think that's super freeing. And walking into rooms and just knowing that. Like, the old adage was like, "We all put our pants on, you know, one leg at a time." But I like to go into rooms and go, all, we're all hoping that we don't screw up today," right? And that everybody is thinking that. Everybody is thinking that. And that can be, nice to remember because it also makes us much more human when we're going into conversations, and we can be much more accepting of people when they're frustrated, when they, when they do... I'm not saying blow up, but when they just have sharp moments, 'cause we know that this person's just carrying so much stress and pressure, and it's coming from a place of like, they just wish they had done better, right? And has nothing, sometimes it has nothing to do with you. It has nothing to do with you. But they just let themselves down. So that's, I think that could be really freeing also.

I think I remember Oprah saying that one thing that surprised her was how often even the most, famous and successful people, including former presidents and whatnot, after an interview, they would ask, "How did I do?"

I do.

And they wanna know, they wanna get this kind of sense of validation. Did I do okay?

And that everyone is asking themselves, like, how do I, how do I do okay, and then did I do okay? And I do agree that is freeing knowing that happens even to the most senior leaders and the CEOs that you work with as well, and how much they care about the prep, putting the prep work in, being vulnerable, being criticized in the effort to do better, and that the doubts are just side product, part of it.

Totally. And they wanna be memorable. They wanna say something that's other people will remember them later. They don't wanna waste people's time, just like any of us. And it, yeah, it is absolutely what you said is true. They all ask afterwards. They don't wanna let their team down. They don't... And it's not even, like, just about themselves as, like, they don't wanna let all the people down that they are supposed to lift up on a daily basis.

And when they show up on an Oprah or on a, any kind of stage, they know the immense pressure, the people who are behind them, who if they blow it, they're blowing it for, hundreds if not thousands of people any given day. It's a lot of pressure.

That is a lot of pressure.

Is there anything that you wanna share? Any other final tips or suggestions that we haven't covered yet?

You know, be careful, be careful with the advice when people say just be yourself. Because we should be ourselves for sure. there's nobody else out there who's like you. And make sure that goes along with the confines of wherever, whatever company you're going to work for, or whatever stage you happen to be on that day.

And I say stage, but it could be literally going to a PTO meeting or doing a job interview. That's a stage. You're performing at that moment for somebody that's across the, you know, a desk from you. So it's, it's be yourself, but within the rules of wherever, you know, you're interviewing or speaking right at that moment.

And that's really important to remember.

Really good one.

Kathryn, thanks so much for sharing your wisdom, some of your experience and, sort of stories from working at that level and, with that caliber of leader, which sometimes again, we feel like, oh, they're at that level because they've had so many years of practice, and they're clearly got there because they're naturally talented, and it's just not the case.

And I hope that in addition to everything that you share, people really realize, no, there are companies like yours that do exactly this, 'cause so much goes into it. And if you need to take 30 minutes every day to prep for your meetings, if you need to spend a full day prepping for an all-hands presentation or a panel you're participating on, that those are the things that just go into it, and it's invisible work, but it's part of the job Where can people learn more about you and your team?

You can go to janicekperformancegroup.com or find me on LinkedIn where, I tend to hang out and answer all my direct messages.

Perfect. We will link to both of those, In the show notes. Thank you so much for being on The Manager Track podcast.

For having me.

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